I'm starting a new post, but I can't promise it will be good. We posted FORTY comments on the last one. It was starting to bog down. If you haven't wasted hours of your life with us arguing ridiculous points with Paul and Vic, here's a quick catch-up.
- Bob, a friend of mine, found this wacky site called The Path of Truth that is managed by two guys who claims to be the only two true Christians on Earth. The site claims that Kyle Lake, the Waco pastor who was electrocuted in his baptisery two years ago, died at the hand of God because he was a heretic.
- A very good friend of mine recently lost a close friend of his who was also a promising young minister of the Gospel. The "Path of Truth" site really ticked me off because it kind-of hit close to home with what my friend was going through. So I wrote a scathing review and emailed the purveyor of the site to respond.
- He did.
- A lot.
- His name is Paul Cohen. He has a buddy named Victor. They are sinless, omniscient and smart. Also really funny.
- We argued earnestly for a while. Paul and Vic are still earnest. I'm bored.
That pretty much catches you up. I'm sure there will be more banter. Enjoy.
I'm starting a new post, but I can't promise it will be good. We posted FORTY comments on the last one. It was starting to bog down. If you haven't wasted hours of your life with us arguing ridiculous points with Paul and Vic, here's a quick catch-up.
72 comments:
Andy, Victor here.
I suspect you are the same "Andy" that thought we were hilarious, comically so:
"I want to thank Paul and Victor for their hilarious comic strip. I LOVE Non Sequitur guys...I read it in every Sunday paper...you have a talent, keep it up."
Correct me if I am wrong. If you are that person, how is it that at first you are entertained, apparently to the point of mocking us with a heathen stance, and then you switch to a quasi-sober believing enquirer that presumes or pretends to know something about God, His ways, and the Scriptures, and thinks to perhaps trip us up or prove us wrong? Explain please; perhaps these are misperceptions?
Nevertheless, we will answer, if not for your sake, then for that of others. As for your questions, most if not all are already answered on our site, if you care to go there. By the grace of God, we live what we teach and teach what we live, speak what we know, say what we mean and mean what we say, and so it should be because the Lord requires it of all those who are His. It is not a matter of theory, philosophy, "theology," or opinion to us - Opinion. Those have all done their dirty work. Only revealed Truth from the Savior will suffice for those interested in living harmony and peace with God. Does that sound funny to you, Andy?
We'll see if you are laughing by the time we are done, not by ill temper and ridicule or proud, ignorant, juvenile banter (as has been the case from Bob, Ryan, Kibbles, and Nancy, who, incredulously, think themselves to be the Lord's), but by godly speech that only expresses reality and truth from God - Truth.
Let's take it from the top of your second post: I will give you individual links, which you ought to find useful if you are interested in answers to the questions you pose. If, upon sincerely, responsibly examining those links, you don't find what you are after, you may try us again, and, Lord willing, we will take it from there.
You write: "Not YET...God does speak to others."
Indeed, He does. Diabolical Doctrine: 23) "There is no literal, personal voice of God speaking today as in Biblical times."
You write: "But until that time, I cannot simply trust that you are wise men of good counsel. I would be a fool to."
Your words tell that you are a fool, quite unlearned in the Testimony of Jesus Christ, which says:
"We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
As harsh as those words will sound to the unregenerate ear, my purpose is not to belittle or condemn you but to tell you the truth. If you had faith, as you pretend, you would receive us, knowing we are of God. Your spirit, by the Holy Spirit, would be able to discern. You would receive a witness. Instead, you open your mouth wide before your ears have heard. That is the mark of a fool:
"Every wise one deals with knowledge, but a fool lays open his folly" (Proverbs 13:16 MKJV).
"If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him" (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).
Are we funny, Andy? While we realize you are trying to clarify, which, I suppose in itself might mean something of value, we perceive your spirit to be a little less than humble or sincere. Are we right? Nevertheless, for His sake and yours, and that of others, we will take this gladly give you the benefit of doubt. It gives us great and splendid opportunity to declare Him and His righteousness.
You write: "So my purpose here (until I can speak with you more or get a better understanding through the Spirit)...."
If you had the Spirit and the Spirit was helping you, you would not ask the questions you ask, particularly if you knew as much as you presume to know.
You write: "And if I feel you guys are trying to bring life and understanding through words or Scripture I'll continue with bigger, more important things."
While my words cut, they bring life, even as a surgeon's scapel can be for good. It will not be up to me but up to the Lord and what you do with your "feelings." How will you react? Will you permit yourself humble or proud feelings? Will you serve for God's glory, as you say, or will you continue to be your own god, and that in His Name?
You write: "For now, the most important thing for me is that, whether you see me as an unbeliever searching for truth or as a believer searching for knowledge, you treat me as you believe Christ would."
It is done. However, how can you tell how Jesus would treat you, not knowing Him? It is evident to us and to all who know Him that you only know what men have told you. Mind you, though it may be a careless use of words, you only ask that we treat you as we believe Christ would. We do. But our faith is not vain. Many do many things according to their own beliefs, having opinions but not having the Truth. We speak what we know:
"You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22 MKJV).
We can know, Andy; not many know they can know; it is a guessing game to most, thinking they do well.
You write: "...and in your wisest moment...you are ignorant compared to God. In your highest revelations, you know nothing compared to Christ. So let's just say compared to Christ, which should be our only comparison (2 Cor. 10:12, Gal. 6:4) we're all ignorant."
This is true if you speak of the carnal man. The spiritual man is not so because he is born of Him, spirit of His Spirit. We being spiritual, what you say, according to the Word of God, is patently false. Jesus promised, and fulfilled His promise to us, being faithful:
"However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come" (John 16:13 MKJV).
Your carnality dispels that truth, relegating it to an after-life because your carnal man has not, and will not, experience the truth. Not many professing Christ know that the "after-life" is to be experienced in the present, while we are still here in our earthen vessels, though it is not in or of this world. Not having the Spirit, you cannot appreciate the Heavenly riches of the bona fide Christian believer:
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things" (1 John 2:20 MKJV).
"But the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true and no lie, and as He has taught you, abide in Him" (1 John 2:27 MKJV).
"But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:12-16 MKJV).
Have you never red the Scriptures, Andy? Here is His clear declaration, of both meaningful and real things:
"Then he picked us up and set us down in highest Heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah" (Ephesians 2:6 MSG).
We are there in actuality, not only in "theology." We speak to you from His throne.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel" (Hebrews 12:22-24 MKJV).
You see, Andy, this is not funny now, is it? The Bible is not a comic book and these are not Victor's or Paul's words but God's, of which you are quite ignorant. Is that not so?
You write: "You've called the lot of them 'unbelievers,' 'the anti christ,' 'mongrels,' 'whores,' etc...I need not go on there. Obviously not words used when in a discussion with a fellow believer...neither for rebuking nor encouraging."
You are right. Jesus did not call His disciples "vipers," did He? John the Baptist did not call his or the Lord’s disciples "a brood of vipers," did he?
You write: "And the only way for you to know this is by divine revelation.... I'm fine with that if its true...."
You are right again. There is no other way to know, and I hope you are right on the second part. We will know, won't we?
You write: "You can tell nothing of a man's spirit from words on a paper...and if that is where you are making your judgments on people...condemning them to hell...then you are playing God."
Not true. If a man wishes to pose as a devil, it is because he is a devil. Christ would not pose as one, and those in whom His Spirit dwells would not do so because they are one with Him; there is no need on their part to act out darkness, not for any reason. It is foolish of you to think one cannot see Ryan and Bob for what they are, but that is your lot in darkness.
As to "condemning them to hell," I disagree there as well. They are in hell; that is why they speak as they do:
"He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God" (John 3:18 MKJV).
Read the Diabolical Doctrine 15) "Those who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be fearfully and forever tormented, without end."
As to "playing God," I might agree, but not for your judgment:
"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me" (Matthew 10:40 MKJV).
"Then we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For He has made Him Who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:20-21 MKJV).
But you don't know these things, Andy, not knowing Him in present reality. Are we still entertaining you? Do you see how your letter is riddled with error? Its very substance is darkness, and we shine the light.
You write: "To be like minded with Christ doesn't mean youre all knowing. It cannot be done without revelation from God."
We have, by the Scriptures, proven the first portion of this statement to be error, but you are right in the second portion of your statement, as we have already agreed.
You write: "So, clarify this before all else...you have received word from the Holy Spirit regarding these souls...and that is why you can make such claims on a man's heart you've never met...correct?"
Correct. See 1 Corinthians 2:12-16 as quoted above.
You write: "Also, I'd like to say that the Spirit has Not revealed to me the condition of the heart and soul of any man or woman in this room...just fyi."
We have that information.
You write:
"Ryan said, 'I'm trusting in God to send hardship in my life so that I can know him more.
"You responded,
'You have spoken it, and so it will be'
"Please explain this? You believe Ryan to be an 'unbeliever.' Or you'd say you know he is. Why then, b/c an unbeliever speaks a word, will it be so in heaven and on earth? He has not been covered by the blood of Christ, justified by grace through faith...why will God 'make it so?'”
My answer:
"But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the Day of Judgment" (Matthew 12:36 MKJV).
Ryan was not differentiating between evil suffered for righteousness' sake and otherwise, not knowing the difference, and what is worse for him, he would not listen.
Nevertheless, I was given to speak those words, without memory of specific Scriptures.
You write: "I work with dozens of unbelievers and every day they speak curses and blessings that I hope surely do not hold any weight in heaven. Curses on Christians and unbelievers, on themselves and others, on strangers and friends. I do believe there is power in the spoken word...but in no way do I believe b/c an unbeliever asks something of God or anyone...that 'it will be so.'"
You are right – not in many cases is this so, yet those that curse will be called into account. Now, was Nebuchadnezzar a believer? Did he answer for his word, which was spoken out of the abundance of his heart?
"The king spoke and said, Is this not great Babylon that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power and for the honor of my majesty? While the word was in the king's mouth, a voice fell from Heaven, saying, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken. The kingdom has departed from you" (Daniel 4:30-31 MKJV).
You write: "On your website it says 'If you are walking in fear of men' (and not of God)...'then you will be subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm.'"
You continue: "Okay, let's just say I'm okay with this as well...but you've also discussed that believers, Jesus at the top of the long long list, are also subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm. So no matter the cause or purpose of death, it seems that believers and non believers (for various reasons) are all subject to sudden and violent endings of their physical life in this realm. So why make this statement? The statement should actually read 'If you're walking in fear of the Lord, or in fear of men.....then you are subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm.' But if you're statement read what it should...you're not really saying anything. It's a pointless thing to say...lets not fill up pages of stuff that's pointless to say. When you say these pointless things, it brings up questions...b/c by making that statement, it implies that if you aren't living in fear of men then you aren't subject to any sudden and violent ending. If you're not implying that...then don't waste time. So why do you say it?"
I answer: One, you have something confused. You'd best give me the exact quotation and context. Two, those in the world are subject to the perils of the world. Those that are called, chosen and faithful do not die "accidental" or tragic deaths. Can you show me an example in Scripture where one perished by an untimely death when walking in faith and obedience to God? There is no example or principle thus described in Scripture. On the contrary, it is written, in so many places and in so many ways:
"I have been young, and am old; yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, or his seed begging bread" (Psalms 37:25 MKJV).
"Blessed is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is only in the Law of Jehovah; and in His Law he meditates day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivulets of water that brings forth its fruit in its seasons, and its leaf shall not wither, and all which he does shall be blessed. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For Jehovah knows the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish" (Psalms 1:1-6 MKJV).
"If My people, who are called by My Name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land" (2 Chronicles 7:14 MKJV).
"And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah Who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
"For Jehovah God is a sun and shield; Jehovah will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly" (Psalms 84:11 MKJV).
The whole Bible substantiates what I say and I say only what the Bible testifies. See Obedience, God Heals Today, His Way, and Christian Physical Diet.
There may be many reasons that professing believers suffer and perish, which are not apparent to those in darkness. Read Is Your Profession of Faith Vain, Christian? and The True Marks of a Cult.
You ask: "1. Can you walk into a sanctuary in any church and know the condition of each and every soul immediately by God's revelation?"
Only if the Lord gives it to me. However, men are known by their words and countenances, and, to the spiritual man, these things are readily discernible.
The question you ask is a carnal one, as with so many. The carnal man has no knowledge of the holy. In the spiritual man, all things are known, as the Lord and the Scriptures declare, and as I have submitted to you. Having said that, there are things known generally from God of almost any "sanctuary" and "church."
You ask: "2. Do you speak in tongues?"
Read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Diabolical Doctrine 3) "Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today."
You ask: "3. What are you hobbies?"
My food is to do His will. I have no need of hobbies, unless reading is counted as one.
You ask: "Do you have a family?"
I have two, an earthly and a Heavenly.
You ask: "Do you have a job?"
See www.harvesthaven.com.
You ask: "Will you break down a typical day in your life for me?"
No, but you witness a very good sample of most of my day here. God determines all things and I can do nothing without Him.
You ask: "4. On your site you mention that you no longer 'willfully sin.' Once again the implication there is that sometimes you 'unwillingly sin.' If not, you would have said, 'we don't sin.' So could you give me an example or two of these types of sins? Particularly one you have recently committed. Let us both bring these things 'into the light.'"
This reply will not satisfy you, but then I am not here for your pleasure or satisfaction, except of the highest order. Paul said that in his flesh dwells no good thing, yet he did not sin as you count sin. He said:
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:25 MKJV).
His brother and ours said, by the Spirit of our Elder Brother:
"And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin. Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:3-10 MKJV).
I don't claim righteousness in my own right, Andy, but I have experienced the reality of these Scriptures, as have all the saints. Those still in their sins cannot imagine such a life or condition before God, except in theory, which does not wash.
Do you convince me of sin? Ryan and Bob accuse us of sin. Are they right? Do you think they are right? Do you believe that when I call one a mongrel that I am sinning? If one is a mongrel, one is a mongrel. (For that very cause, the Lord destroyed the first world by water.) I would be wrong to say so if it were not true and I would be wrong to say it only to hurt. But am I wrong to call someone a viper or a dog or a slow belly if it is true? I would be wrong to deny it if it were true, especially if the Spirit leads to speak. But perhaps your "spirit" does not believe or condone such things. Is that so? Read the writings in False Love - The Last Stronghold.
You write: "Thank you gentleman. I assure you I'm not missing the point of all this...and these things are somewhat small matters in comparison...but they are building blocks towards understanding the bigger picture. I have so much more. I hope you're not too tired to help me to understand."
Honestly, Andy, what are your motives? Why are you asking? Will you tell us or would you taunt us to tell you, seeing we "claim to know all things"? Examine yourself and read those links we have labored to give you freely. If you are not prepared to do that, then you need not ask us any more questions. On the other hand, we cannot refuse one the Lord brings, even as he falls into his own traps.
Andy, if we do entertain you, beware:
"Woe to you who are full! For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now! For you shall mourn and weep" (Luke 6:25 MKJV).
"Sorrow is better than laughter; for by the sadness of the face the heart is made better. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of laughter. It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than for a man to hear the song of fools. For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool; this also is vanity" (Ecclesiastes 7:3-6 MKJV).
"Because I called, and you refused; I stretched out my hand, and no one paid attention; but you have despised all my advice, and would have none of my warning. I also will laugh at your trouble; I will mock when your fear comes; when your fear comes as a wasting away, and your ruin comes like a tempest when trouble and pain come upon you. Then they shall call upon me, and I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me; instead they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of Jehovah. They would have none of my counsel; they despised all my correction, and they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own desires. For the turning away of the simple kills them, and the ease of fools destroys them. But whoever listens to me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil" (Proverbs 1:24-33 MKJV).
Heeding, you will come away a very wealthy person. Rejecting, you will be as poor as you can ever be.
The Lord's will be done.
Blessed to know Him and the power of His resurrection, having the unspeakable, unmerited privilege of being identified with Him in an evil world,
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Andy,
If you were just here to understand, as you now claim, you would not have begun our conversation by saying:
"I want to thank Paul and Victor for their hilarious comic strip. I LOVE Non Sequitur guys...I read it in every Sunday paper...you have a talent, keep it up."
You have already formed a conclusion, an unwarranted one, unsupported by any facts or evidence. If you were here to understand, you would bring forth your examples of that which you accuse us and submit them for scrutiny so everything could be proven. You have not done what is the very least to be expected among honest citizens of any earthly country, yet you wish to judge us according to the standards of Christ. How can you do that, seeing you are not able to fulfill what is minimally required among the sinners of this world?
There is no honest inquiry here, so we are not buying into your charade of objectivity.
Nevertheless, we will answer your letter, if not presently for your sake, because you are impervious to hearing the truth, then for the sake of others who may benefit from an examination of all things in the light. The time of intellectual religious bullying, in which you and your associates indulge, is over; praise God.
You write:
"God has not yet revealed your hearts to me. Not YET...God does speak to others."
You say that as if you think we have said otherwise. We never have. However, you are fundamentally wrong about how the saints in Christ recognize brethren and distinguish them from false brethren. It is not a matter of waiting on God to tell us. He has given us to exercise our spiritual senses, which are in Christ, so that we can distinguish good from evil. This is His will, that all His children can see. Just as men of this world can see where they are walking and can tell a wolf from a sheep, so does the Lord our God give those of His Kingdom to see where they are walking, and to know the difference between a wolf and a sheep. He has opened our eyes. It is that simple.
You ask us to treat you as Christ would, but then you tell us we cannot know what He knows. If we cannot see and know as He does, how, then, can we treat you like He would? You are not making any sense. Did Christ, in the days of His flesh, treat every person the same in His speech and manner? Did He treat the moneychangers in the temple the same as Zacchaeus, or the scribes and Pharisees that came to question Him in Matthew 15 the same as Nicodemus, who came to question Him at night? The Lord told the latter that those born of God are as the wind – one cannot not know where it came from or where it was headed. You expect us to imitate Christ, as you do, when the Lord Himself commands us to be born again, from above, and then we will be as Him. One cannot imitate the Spirit of God. So what do you imitate? A Christ of your imagination, formed by your corrupt understanding, which is an idol, the works of men's hands.
But if we have His mind, as Paul wrote, and as we know he is correct in what he says, then we do truly treat you, not as He would, but as He does presently, because He is with us. Not having Him yourself (as I have just demonstrated by your lack of understanding of His ways), you do not understand us, just as the religious in the days of His flesh did not understand Him.
You are concerned about and focused on how we treat you. That is another hallmark (besides the man-conceived image of Christ) of false Christianity, which is all about how the one professing expects to be treated by others. True Christianity is not about how others treat me, but about how I treat others. You, on the other hand, want to be treated right, but do not practice the standard you wish to have practiced towards you. You mock us and then turn around, writing us this condescending letter based on false conclusions, not even having bothered to inform yourself with readily available materials we provided for you; if you had done so you would not have approached us in your current manner and purported inquiry.
Furthermore, how the Lord will treat you hereafter will depend on how you treat us:
"I will bless those who bless you, But I will curse those who curse you. And through you I will bless all the nations" (Genesis 12:3 GNB).
"He that receives you receives Me, and he that receives Me receives Him who sent Me. He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward" (Matthew 10:40-41 EMTV).
It is not up to us to enforce His judgments, we are but His messengers. However, let no one here have any doubt that we make His Words known, by which all things are judged, to His glory.
You cite two Scriptures to prove that there is no difference between us because, when compared to Christ, we are all as nothing. But you miss the very point of those Scriptures, which are saying that Christ’s work is communicated through the men He chooses, in whom He comes to dwell. It is not at all saying there is not a difference between people. Otherwise, Galatians 6:6 would not say:
"Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches."
And 2 Corinthians 10:14 would not speak of the authority of some over others:
"For we are not overextending ourselves, as though our authority did not reach to you, for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ...."
If we are sent by Him, and have His authority, which we do, then you would do well to listen to what we say. Trying to neutralize our calling by saying none of us is anything in comparison to Christ, and cannot know His mind, is using truth to support a lie that enables you to evade the Truth. That is how Satan operates.
When we say such things, you condemn us for name-calling, but if we speak with evidence, backed up by Scriptural truths, then who are you to denounce it, seeing you have nothing to show anyone, including those you denounce, to prove otherwise? You are a blowhard, Andy, and you need to do a dramatic 180-degree turn from your present trajectory, which is going head on against God. You will not prevail, but He, the Stone, will pulverize you.
One of your irresponsible statements is that we claim to have knowledge of the conditions of the souls of all football fans. You imply by this canard that we condemn all such people. But we said or implied no such thing. What I did say was very different, speaking to one who professes Christ and believes in eternal damnation:
"Is it not amazing that those naming the Name of Christ are so interested and involved in spectator sports? Can one see Peter and Paul visiting the Coliseum, if it were built in their day, while in Rome to watch the gladiators and other sports, becoming followers and fanatics? Don't those naming Christ know there are far better things to do with one's time? Are you all hypocrites like Ryan, believing in eternal hell-fire, yet spending your time watching football games and cheering on your teams, no differently than your fellow fans that you expect will soon be roasting in hell? If you really believed your own blasphemies you should be doing everything you could to save your fellow sinners from such an unimaginable fate, but instead you indulge your animal passions on football. You are certainly no children of His, not that we ever for a moment could think you were."
To conclude, as you have, that I was making a blanket statement about the souls of all football fans is unsupportable. The question becomes, why did you conclude this? The answer is, because you are of a fault-finding generation, just like your fathers who killed the prophets and crucified the Christ to maintain their own righteousness.
You write:
"You can tell nothing of a man's spirit from words on a paper...and if that is where you are making your judgments on people...condemning them to hell...then you are playing God. To be like minded with Christ doesn't mean youre all knowing. It cannot be done without revelation from God."
We have, more than once, given correction to the notion of the condemnation of hell to which you ascribe, and falsely ascribe to us, yet none of you has been responsible enough to consider the plain meaning of our words, let alone read the support materials we have sent you. How can you expect to get anything out of the answers we give to your questions when you do not bother to listen to anything we say? How can you perform righteous judgment by your ways, as the Lord requires?
This is why I have called your inquiry a charade. It is an inquisition. You know where you are going, and there is no talking to you. Nevertheless, there is an answer for you, because God does not believe in "eternal damnation," but will correct you in due course with just punishment and will be fully justified in His correction because you will not be able to say you did not know or hear His glorious truth that you rejected.
It is no small source of amazement that hypocrites like you can pronounce false judgments against us and our spirit from reading our "words on a paper," conduct additional inquiry such as this for more material, and then tell us that one cannot know anything about men's spirits from such an exercise. Then why bother? What is the point of your questioning? Just go to God and get your revelation.
But the fact is that God is not revealing anything to you, and our words do say something about our spirits, as your words also say something about yours. If Jesus Christ is known as the Word made flesh, how can it not be that our words are the manifestation of our natures? That you profess to know Him and do not realize or understand this is just another confirmation of many that you do not know Him at all.
Here is what God has to say on the matter of our words and their importance:
"But I say to you, that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned" (Matthew 12:36-37 EMTV).
Here is the difference between your words and ours:
"The words of the wicked are to lie in wait for blood; but the mouth of the upright shall deliver them" (Proverbs 12:6 MKJV).
For the Lord our God has given us good words to speak, even His Word:
"Have I not written to you excellent things in counsels and knowledge, that I might make you know the sureness of the words of truth; to return the words of truth to those who send to you?" (Proverbs 22:20-21 MKJV)
You already have your answer to question number one. Just return to what I said about God giving us sight by His Spirit. We do not need His intervention, any more than a worker at the zoo needs his boss to tell him the difference between a snake and a mountain sheep. He has also given us our sight to save, not to destroy. By seeing we are able to remove the things obstructing others from seeing. But those who say they already see, such as you, are not able to receive help (John 9:41). You enter into condemnation, by your own choice (John 3:18-21).
For number two, I am sure Victor has answered well, but I would like to once again point out your faulty conclusion-making process, because it is good in God's sight that we verify these things to all witnesses. Because Ryan, an unbelieving professor of Christ, said something that will come true for him, does not imply that whatsoever any unbeliever says will come true. That is false logic and obviously not what anyone anywhere expects. It only so happens in this instance that Ryan is correct about what will happen to him, and this is all part of God's perfect judgment.
For number three, you are once again wrong in your assumptions. We never said anything of the sort "that believers, Jesus at the top of the long long list, are also subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm." We said the opposite. If you check your references you will see this is so.
As for your minor questions, they are all answered on our site. If you really want to know, it would do you good to find the answers yourself.
I will say one thing for the sake of all, however, as this matter of sin has been brought up several times. The Lord always means what He says. When He says He would have us perfect, walking in the Light and keeping His commandments, He absolutely means it. Why would He not? Is it not the best thing for mankind to walk with God, according to His way, reaping life rather than death? And if He means it, the Lord is certainly willing and able to provide what is necessary for us to do what He commands. For this reason He died and overcame death. This is a most wonderful truth.
The problem for the unregenerate man is that he does not know what such a fulfillment looks like. If he did, those unregenerate men who thought to keep the Law would not have slain the direct manifestation of the Law fulfilled, Jesus Christ. It is no different here. We have Andy, Bob, Ryan, Kibbles, Nancy, and others who think to be followers of Christ and to uphold His Law, yet they reject His appearing in those who actually keep His Law by His grace. Here is what the Scriptures say about these rejecters of Christ:
"For they, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Romans 10:3 EMTV).
They are following their own version of dos and don'ts, trying hard to be right, yet failing miserably. They scoff when we tell them that Christ has delivered us from our sins and from sinning. They say, "Impossible, preposterous!" All they have experienced is failure, not knowing there is a better way:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" (Romans 10:4 EMTV).
We are not trying hard, as Bob put it in his latest post, to keep the Law. The Law is our new nature in Christ. Must a sheep try hard to bleat and eat grass? The Lord has done the work and, as He says of Himself, "We are what we are." We are what He has made us. We are in Him, and He is us. He is our lives. He lives, and therefore so do we, delivered from sin and death. This is the glorious promise of the gospel of Christ.
We tried hard, after we received the Spirit, as did the apostle Paul (recounted in Romans 7), to keep the Law in our own strength. The flesh was not yet overcome; the real battle was only just beginning. (How can one overcome the flesh without His Spirit within? You must be born again.) We were in agreement with the Law, having the mind of Christ and knowing that it was good, but found that we, in our flesh, could not keep it. Therefore the Law was our tutor that led us to Christ, and it was through His righteousness that the Law was fulfilled in us. We entered into His rest, ceasing from our works (Hebrew 3 and 4).
Children must be trained, and receiving the Spirit is only the inception, not the completion. At the end of our training, as Paul declares of himself - describing what happened to him, Christ delivered us from this body of death (Romans 7:25). No, not the physical resurrection. Something more important, the spiritual resurrection, without which no person will see the Lord. The physical resurrection is a mere byproduct of something more important occurring, here and now, within.
In this we have what Paul describes:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death" (Romans 8:1-2 EMTV).
We have been set free from sin and death, but those on this blog keep prodding us to confess that we are in sin, and that we are under the same condemnation that they are. To admit this would be to lie, because we are not. It would be a great disservice to all of you, because you need to know that every Word of God is true, and all the promises of God in Christ are "Yes." He is good to His Word.
Does this mean we are not men of infirmities, with all attendant weaknesses? (Infirmities and weaknesses are not sins – 2 Corinthians 12:7-9.) Of course not. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, as Paul declares, that the excellency of the power might be of God (2 Corinthians 4:7). But do not think, as do you all, that you can have the victory without the gift and, more particularly, the Giver.
There is much on our site to help those who wish to know more. A good place to begin is Law and Grace. Yet, our site is held in contempt by dogs and swine, as several have done here with our words.
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Bob, Victor here.
How foolish and darkened are your thoughts and words! One confused fellow you are!
For example, you say, "I certainly hope that your hearts are true reflections of your professed beliefs."
If our beliefs are wrong, as you have evidently expressed believing, why would you want our hearts to be true reflections of them? Besides, is it not the other way around? Are not beliefs reflections of the heart?
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth the good. And an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth the evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:45 MKJV).
However, you are not a man of faith but of works, having the horse behind the cart, trying desperately to prove faith. That is the fruit of the children of pride.
Humility is the virtue of being able to receive and to learn where needful. You, however, accost us for lack of humility when we speak truly, and you are unwilling to receive. We are able to clearly identify your darkness and contradiction. What about you? Where is your humility? Is not the sliver you see in our eye but a reflection of the beam in yours?
As to the apostle Paul's discourse on the dilemma in Romans 7, Paul Cohen has inadvertently replied to you in his response to Andy. Of course, we understand that you see nothing. That is why we speak. How else will you ever know? There is nobody else we know of speaking these things.
You say: "You see, as a human, that's all I have to go on as has been my point all along. I can never be sure, though."
Do not the Scriptures we have presented clearly identify you in these, your words, as a child of darkness? You make the Lord out to be a liar and His Words lies. We, as emissaries of the True and Holy One, most solemnly declare that one can indeed be sure. Being a child of the Sure One, one is sure:
"In this is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that as He is, so also we are in this world" (1 John 4:17 MKJV).
Yet you speak with all the brashness of one who presumes to know something. Bob, are you not a liar and a hypocrite? Of course, you are!
We have boldness, not arrogance or lack of humility, as you so wickedly suppose, because as He is (in reality and not as your other Jesus), so also we are in this world. Was He guessing His Person or calling? Could He "never be sure, though"?
Listen to us, Bob; you have tried to come up another way. You do not wear a wedding garment and you are speechless; you have nothing true to say. You are, in effect, saying, "I don't have a good light; I can't really see where I'm going or what I'm doing; I can never be sure," but what do the Scriptures declare by the mouth of a genuine believer?
"But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7 MKJV).
We thus expel you from the wedding feast, making it clear to all present that you have no right here without the cross of Christ, which you have despised.
The Lord does not leave those He heals to see "men as trees walking." He "comes a second time" to enable to see clearly:
"And He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the town [you need to allow yourself to be led "out of the town" – "without the city"]. And when He had spat on his eyes and had put His hands on him, He asked Him if he saw anything. And he looked up and said, I see men as trees, walking. And after that He put His hands again on his eyes and made him look up. And he was restored and saw all clearly" (Mark 8:23-25 MKJV).
But you have yet to experience even the first step - His spitting on your eyes. Spiritual spittle of God to the wicked is perceived as condemnation, as humiliation, coming from arrogance and harshness – "Who does He think He is to spit in my eyes? How dare He!" You despise holy spittle, and that is why you turn tail now. You are too proud and selfish, preferring your face to His, shielding your eyes from His mouth, Who sees you clearly.
You say: "Another is that I really appreciate how dedicated to avoiding sin you guys appear to be."
Listen to yourself! Sin is the breaking of God's Law. If we are "dedicated to avoiding sin" (there being only one reason for it, and that is to please God), and you really appreciate it, how then do you open your vile mouth in vitriol, mocking and scoffing at us? Even if we were wrong or misguided, if you can appreciate our battle against sinning, where do you get off speaking publicly against us as you do? You come as an angel of light, Bob, in the accuser of the brethren. There is no other explanation. And those of the world love to have it so, cheering and giving gifts to one another.
However, we are not "dedicated to avoiding sin," as you suppose, or as "appears" to you. God has granted us to overcome, according to His solemn promises in Revelation 2 and 3 to His Church, which we are, being members of Him in His body, which promises are available to those that are His in this world, though not of it.
Don't bother tossing us out some sanctimonious crumbs of pride and compromise to demonstrate some kind of objectivity or piety. It is all or nothing. The cross of Christ is complete, nothing spared. All you are doing here is "celebrating Easter," as some Catholic Philippinos do, by having themselves nailed to a cross for a few minutes or so to demonstrate their dedication of faith to God, the whole thing being a show of ignorance and self-righteousness, an abomination to God. It must be your whole life on the line or it is nothing. We are not deceived.
You say, "You guys thought you were judging me to hell...."
That is a lie, a false accusation, and a product of your own wicked imagination. We have also addressed that very accusation from others on this blog. Doesn't anyone read anything we write?
"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which said, 'By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive; for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them'" (Matthew 13:14-15 MKJV).
We have spoken so that persons, including you, might have the true faith, being delivered from the false that destroys.
You write: "...but really you driven me closer to God and to solidify my resolve to live Holy before Him."
I assure you, we serve two different entities - we One, and you another. If we served the Same, you would not say the foolish things you do, or mock, scorn and falsely accuse us, as you have and do; on the contrary, you would receive us, as the Scriptures declare, and as the One, Holy and True God, the Lord Jesus Christ declares:
"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me. He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he who receives a just one in the name of a just one will receive a just one's reward. And whoever shall give to one of these little ones a cup of cold water to drink, only in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, He shall in no way lose his reward" (Matthew 10:40-42 MKJV).
You write: "I thank God that He has been merciful enough to me to extend His grace and allow me to place my faith in Him, whom I do serve."
He extends it now to you by us, who truly serve the Lord Jesus Christ; you need to repent of your god, who has deceived you:
"But also if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost, in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (Who is the image of God) should not dawn on them" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 MKJV).
You serve another god, and have yet to repent. But we sow good seed, and it will one day bear good fruit, for you and for all those who have heard. Read Mystery's Message.
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Paul,
Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Though you assume much. Nowhere was i laughing or scoffing? I ask so that I do not assume as you do...that is why i ask. You guess and assume my inentions and even my identity...and you assume wrongly. I can assure you that the Spirit did not direct you to that conclusion b/c my questions were merely that, questions...with no intent other than to receive answers. But now I see. The fact is that I could be Andy and Bob and Ryan and Tim in this conversation and you have no idea...b/c God has not reavealed that to you...you that know all things as God does...i assure you he knows.
Its late and I'm gonna take a walk with my girlfriend...its a hobby of mine. walking and looking at nature. So I'll get back with you soon.
until then however...2 things
>do you believe that you "know all things?" ALL things...at your disposal...whenever you want. ALL things? In the spiritual and physical realm.
> secondly, do you refer to Matthew chapter 23 when you say that Jesus called his disciples a brood of vipors? Do you believe the disciples that Jesus was speaking to in that chapter to be believers?
(by the way, i liked your sarcasm in stating that...until now you havent done very well in discerning sarcasm...as if you were above that literary tool...i enjoyed a bit from you)
Thanks,
andy
"Doesn't anyone read anything we write?"
yes...it's just so forgettable. we may need you to write it out a few more times.
and stop looking at my tail.
"that is why you turn tail now."
Hey, again, thanks for responding to my questions about the Trinity. I guess that one goes in Andy's "hard" section. Or maybe you just deny the Trinity?
I can't believe I'm getting into this, but here goes:
Paul and Victor;
You are Judaizers... The same ones that Paul describes in his letters, who elevate law above the gospel of grace. You are the "friends" of Job who blame his misfortune on unrighteous acts and fail to see the sovereignty of God at work. You are pharisees... The ones who claim to know the word of God, and whose ultimate goal is to sunder the work of grace in favor of their own righteous legalism.
God seeks your heart. He longs to apply his soothing grace to your elevation of law above all else. He wants you to understand the spirit of the law more than the letter of the law, that you may truly know Him and not simply know about Him.
I know you're going to dismiss my statements as the rantings of a heretic. I won't respond if you choose to do so. Just know that you have chosen he path that Paul describes in Galatians. You have chosen to follow "a different gospel." Take a look at Galatians 3:
"1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
So I ask: Are you following by the law of faith or the law of Moses?
It's clear to me where you have made your bed. Unfortunately for you, Paul refers to you as "foolish", and says that you'll be "cursed". Good luck with that!
Andy, Victor here.
Even if you were not the same physical person as the author of the first brief blog entry (but you are the same), you are similar in spirit – cagey, spiritually irresponsible, sacrilegious, irreverent, and devilish (I could say "juvenile" or "childish," which you are, but it is much more serious than that). So what does it matter if you are or are not physically the same? What does it matter if we know for sure? What is the nature of your spirit, and what is it that counts to God? And what is it that John spoke of? Was it of carnal or intellectual or mystic knowledge, as you and your companions surmise?
We take our work seriously, regarding soberly both the high and low, knowing full well that we will give an account to our Lord for every idle word spoken, even as He has said. We know His Word is good and will be fulfilled. We know that words at any time, from anyone, can bring life or death, how much more those pertaining to and concerning God and His Kingdom? Jesus Christ paid a fearful price to demonstrate the gravity of these holy things and the great importance of His will for all mankind. We perceive that you despise His sacrifice and Person, trampling on His blood.
Taught of God, by His grace, through His mercy, we well recognize that even devils believe:
"You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:19-20 MKJV)
Though using strong words, we have sincerely and truthfully, with plainness of speech, expressed what He has given us to see regarding the spiritual fruits of participants in this blog, not only for those to whom we have personally written, but also for those who would read these dialogues, in present and future.
We perceive that some participants, like Tim perhaps, have been intellectually bullied, verbally mauled and spiritually abused at this blog, or simply confounded or deceived by swine pulling the wool over the eyes of the sheep. The victims have been weak in faith, without ample knowledge of their Lord and Savior. We have spoken on the Lord's behalf to give hope to the helpless, to break the teeth of vipers, to rip off the sheep's clothing from the wolves and slay them before all. Doing so, we are counted as wolves ourselves, not by true sheep, but by those who hate the Truth.
You criticize our claim to know all things, not realizing that it is not we who originated that claim at all. Why should we not believe the Word of God? You mock and call the apostle John a liar because John spoke those words to all that believe, no matter who they are. Mocking him, you mock the One Who loved him and gave Himself for him. Do you know what John meant by those words, or do you allow any value to them at all? Of course not.
The fact that you mock such a truth only serves to confirm our words of you. Only devils, and not disciples, do what you do, hiding and playing games. This, your letter, tells us you read the Lord's words to and of Nathanael this way:
"Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is much guile."
Is that what your Jesus and your bible say in John? Apparently it is, and you do your utmost to live by it. But the Holy Scriptures we read declare the opposite of your spirit and conduct:
"Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him and said of him, Behold an Israelite indeed in whom is no guile!" (John 1:47 MKJV)
Here is, perhaps, a more suitably expressive version in this case:
"When Jesus saw him coming He said, 'There's a real Israelite, not a false bone in his body'" (John 1:47 MSG).
Go then, hand-in-hand with the companion of your hobby (may she be delivered of your vile influence, if God wills. But if in league with you, let His judgment by His Word we speak come to both).
Share these correspondences with your pastor or spiritual elders, Andy, if you have any, or your parents, or any having responsibility for your conduct (you would share if innocent of these things, but won't if guilty). Let them be either proud or ashamed. If proud, let their time come upon them; if ashamed, there is hope for them.
I was hoping you would be honest enough to admit you were also the "first Andy." I left a wide open door for that. But you are not willing to engage in an open and honest discussion, and, though you have feigned such willingness, the fruits speak for themselves.
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap" (Galatians 6:7 MKJV).
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Andy,
You do not appreciate our time at all. For example, Victor wrote to you as well as I did, yet you respond to a portion of his letter while addressing me, and never mention him at all. You do not even know who is talking to you, much less understand what is being said to you, as we have specifically pointed out.
The worst part of this is that, in your lack of comprehension, you show no humility in seeking the truth. Instead, you assume to know something based on your misreading and misperception of what has been said, which is the result of your reliance on a corrupt nature that compels you to taunt, scoff and condemn what is good, true, and holy:
"But these, as unreasoning natural animals, having been born for capture and destruction, blaspheme at things of which they are ignorant, and shall be destroyed in their destruction, receiving the wages of unrighteousness, counting as a pleasure to revel in the daytime, they are spots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart having been trained in greediness, they are accursed children" (2 Peter 2:12-14 EMTV).
There are several things we brought up in our letters that you have not acknowledged or answered. I am speaking of important things regarding your questions. I understand that you say you will further respond, but that which you have already answered shows you have disregarded many things we have said to you. Yet you call your conduct "appreciation." We are telling you, and everyone here that is witnessing these things, that just as your appreciation is clearly disdain, so is your love hate, your truth a lie, your Christ antiChrist, and your god Satan.
We would that you and your companions repent. What gain is it for us that you are destroyed in your sins? Nevertheless, we know that God must also have vessels of destruction, which He endures with much longsuffering, in order that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of His mercy (Romans 9:22). While there is no credit coming to us that we happen to be vessels of mercy, there is hope for you in what He has done for us. The same Scriptures that you reject and twist say this:
"For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all" (Romans 11:32 MKJV).
Thankful to be agents of His mercy, and dispensers of His truth, His goodness and severity,
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
I apologize for not putting "to paul and victor" as i intended at the top of my last post. It was a simple mistake and did not mean Victor's time was not appreciated. I was in a bit of a rush and my intent was just to address you both together as I would accept a response from either. but yeah, that mistake was worth the paragraph you gave it and it meant that I didn't care...you're right. (sarcasm)
Also (paul) you go on to say that I disregard some things you said??? I havent even got a chance to respond yet? what's your deal? I had about 5 minutes so I decided to ask a few things...I simply did not have time to field it all...is that unbiblical somehow? Does it showed i've ignored you? Do I mention that I will get back to you? So why bring it up? Are you just searching for something to say? Does it show a lack of humility or sincerity? Not at all.
Actually, I had two questions in my last post...#1 Do you know all things? (also, i'd like to say i did not scoff at the idea at all did i? I did not laugh at the idea of it as Victor says i did...i dont understand that?) Also, neither of you has spoken the answer to that "yes we do know all things" or "no, we do not." So you mock me for ASSUMING i mock that...and then you don't outright give an answer? What am I to do with that?
#2. Do you believe the disciples that Jesus speaks to in Matthew 23 to be Believers? And neither of you answered..and neither said you would get back to me with that answer. So you've committed the same attrocity that you accuse me of...though I wouldn't have chosen to say that means you don't care...I guess I should?
Victor, I don't know where to start...though you still assume incorrectly.
Also, I'd like to say that it doesn't matter to me that you don't know who I am in Spirit or flesh, but it just demonstrates you don't know ALL things as God does. Which means you are ignorant compared to him. Do you know the definition of ignorance? Once again, if you respond to this, then please include a response. "I know all things" or "I don't".
In my opinion however, you should't respond. You have consistently taken your own words and Scripture out of context...especially when answering my first post. If you consider me swine, then please do not cast your pearls before me any longer b/c I consider you swine...so there is no need.
"Deny the Trinity"? Try Who Is Jesus Christ?
Ok, a few comments.
1. I think we're all getting a little tired of beating our heads against this wall. I just want to predict that when Bob, Andy, Steve, Nancy, kibbles and I all finally leave Paul and Vic to have their ridiculous last word, they'll claim victory.
2. Paul and Vic: Neither of you has responded to my invitation to open the scriptures and your hearts in prayer to the Father. Please consider praying Ps. 139:23-24 for a full month. I'll gladly return the favor by reading your site or whatever else you'd like me to do (well, except teleporting. I'm out on teleporting. Bad knees.)
3. I still can't get over the "we're sinless" claim. I have never actually met anyone who has made that claim. Maybe you haven't considered sins of omission? While you were writing posts to this blog, you could have been sharing truth with a larger audience or praying in the spirit or helping others. If you had slept just 30 minutes less last night, then you could have used that time to serve the Lord. Aren't you omitting acts of righteousness for 30 minutes more comfort? Or think of this: the energy you consume by using your computer is produced by coal plants that are raping our natural resources, making a mockery of God's command to be good stewards of the Earth. Aren't you joining in this disobedience as long as you consume coal-powered electricity? There are thousands of other circumstances like this where you sin by omission even if you're not sinning by rebellion. Just something to think about.
4. How's business at Harvest Haven?
1. Deny the Trinity? Yes, you do. Click on your own stupid link ...you know where to find it...I wouldn't tell anyone else to go there. It's just rubbish. Victor claims that the Father, the Son, and The Spirit are like he is as a father, a son, and a husband. Plus, I recall asking you to defend your position only with applicable scripture, not your fodder or links to your path of destruction.
2. Paul, did you ask for permission before answering for Victor? You see, I wrote to Victor and yet you respond for him. I think you lambaste Andy for something similar? (rhetorical...please don't bother to respond)
3. Still, still...thanks for answering my questions about the Trinity. (I think my parents still have my high school papers if you need some more material to plagarize, though)
Man, I miss reading Ryan's blog for a couple of weeks and I miss all the comments. Are you glad you finally got the controversy you always wanted?
1. I went to Baylor and have many friends who knew and worshipped with Kyle or were there at the end of his earth life, but the beginning of his wonderful eternal journey. To speak ill of the dead is just tacky.
2. The best end of this arguement is to cease arguing. We have found that the Internet is mainly a breeding ground for obessiveness. People can make absolute statements in arguements, thus creating the inability to argue. Here's a non-church example. I love "CSI:" Well two characters have got together and now some fans aren't happy so they post stuff like "Jorja Fox is ugly and sucks and shouldn't be on the show." Well, you can't really argue that one. It's the same insaneness of the people that choose to argue for arguements sake.
3. This summer I had the unfortunate opportunity to "walk through the valley of the shadow of death." It sucked and crushed my faith. I had to think did my individual sinning cause the action? I am not sinless. But..I realized the event was the result of living in a fallen world. We all sin and deal with the consequences of inperfection. My faith was ultimately restored, even stronger than before.
4. I would have a minor in speech from Baylor (if Baylor gave one to Business majors). People who argue with too many words don't have a real arguement and are trying to confuse the situation.
5. I came looking for a post about Aggie football? What about Coach Fran?
MW
Steve, are things clear to you, as you claim? And who, may we ask, are you, since you expect us to take your word and conclusions as valid pronouncements without any evidence to verify them? Even God sets things in order when He brings judgment:
"I will argue my point with you and lay it all out for you to see" (Psalms 50:21 GW).
You must be greater than God. Sorry, but we had never heard of you until this day, and we see nothing so far that shows us you trump Him just because you say something is so.
However, if you will consider the absurdity, and, yes, the evil of pronouncing things without backing those pronouncements with facts (it is sin because breaking the commandment of God in making false accusation), you can revisit our postings to see that we have carefully laid out our case in everything we have said here. There is much for you to choose from if you care to demonstrate our error and prove we are at fault, for our sakes and that of others who witness this dialogue.
We have not made reckless conjectures or given our opinions, as you have; instead, we have backed what we declare with godly reason and Scripture. We have not worked backwards from a conclusion or Scripture, as you have, but have worked forwards from the words and attitudes of others recorded on this blog, which we cite, and have proven what we say against them. Because you do not accept our proof does not make your rejection valid. Again, just who do you think you are?
It is quite arrogant of you to think your word holds so much weight that you need not explain. The only one who considers himself above God is the son of perdition, "who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or every object of worship, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4 EMTV).
That is where you are, "Pastor." You are no pastor of Christ - you are a hireling of men, one who pleases men and serves corrupt flesh. You are what the man of sin is all about. That is also why you hate the Law. You hate the Lawgiver and would get rid of Him with your iniquity you call "grace."
As for us, having had the beams removed from our eyes, we plainly see through the form of godliness that rejects Christ, which is what has been expressed here by you and those arguing with us and which comes against His Word and Testimony. We have shown how that is so, and how what we see in Christ is consistent with the Record of God that also testifies against the hypocrisy and sinful ways of false religious professors of Christ, such as you.
For this you call us "legalists." Did you not know, "Pastor," that sin is the breaking of the Law? Did you not know that the Law has not been done away with? Or does your bible (obviously not the authentic one) say there is no more Law of God, and you can just do what you want? That is certainly what you are doing.
All of our answers are recorded on this blog, so you should have no problem putting together your case if you choose to be lawfully responsible for what has come out of your mouth. It is not enough to justify your opinions by quoting disembodied Scripture, tied to nothing except your opinion. You are not the Foundation here. We have no disagreement with the Scripture you quoted us. We uphold it, not just by word, but in deed and manner of life. You have not proven it applies to us as you say it does.
God, the One you presume to represent, calls on two or three witnesses to establish every word (Deuteronomy 17:6 and 2 Corinthians 13:1). True witnesses bring forth substance, first hand verification of that which they testify. Accusers only bring forth accusations. The religious brought forth two accusers of Christ, but not two valid witnesses against Him, not even one. An accusation without substantive evidence is like a cloud without rain. It brings nothing to the earth. Your word is alone and void of substance.
If and when you produce some evidence, we can address your claims, but until then you serve as a false accuser and idle chatterbox. We have provided the three witnesses needed to establish every word, but you have provided nothing except your agreement with the accusations of lawless and uncircumcised mouths, for whom you wish to stand as advocate because you are one of them in substance and nature.
I have made some comments within the text of your letter so you might have some specific idea of where to begin in crafting a responsible letter proving your allegations.
Steve Hayes said...
I can't believe I'm getting into this, but here goes:
Paul: God has brought you here to judge you.
Steve: Paul and Victor;
You are Judaizers... The same ones that Paul describes in his letters, who elevate law above the gospel of grace.
Paul: Your opinion. Prove it.
Steve: You are the "friends" of Job who blame his misfortune on unrighteous acts and fail to see the sovereignty of God at work.
Paul: Your opinion again. Prove it. We have clearly said the opposite of what you say we fail to see.
Steve: You are pharisees... The ones who claim to know the word of God, and whose ultimate goal is to sunder the work of grace in favor of their own righteous legalism.
Paul: Another opinion. You presume to divine the motives of our hearts. Prove your assertions.
Steve: God seeks your heart. He longs to apply his soothing grace to your elevation of law above all else. He wants you to understand the spirit of the law more than the letter of the law, that you may truly know Him and not simply know about Him.
Paul: One who speaks about what God wants, while violating His Laws and ways, is not a reliable or true witness. Once you begin acting in accord with His ways you can begin to know what He wants:
"He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21 EMTV).
Steve: I know you're going to dismiss my statements as the rantings of a heretic.
Paul: The point is not whether I dismiss them, but on what authority. I have given you mine, which is in agreement with the Word of God. Where is yours?
Steve: I won't respond if you choose to do so.
Paul: Spoken like a true hireling.
Steve: Just know that you have chosen he path that Paul describes in Galatians. You have chosen to follow "a different gospel." Take a look at Galatians 3:
"1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
Paul: Prove where we are seeking justification by the works of the Law. Show us specifically when and how we do this. Paul knew the Galatians. Do you know us? Prove it.
Steve: So I ask: Are you following by the law of faith or the law of Moses?
Paul: We establish the Law in the same manner of all saints, by faith. How about you? Are you establishing the Law? Read The True Marks of a Cult and Is Your Profession of Faith Vain, Christian? and let us know.
Steve: It's clear to me where you have made your bed. Unfortunately for you, Paul refers to you as "foolish", and says that you'll be "cursed". Good luck with that!
Paul: As I asked in the beginning, "Is it clear?" You have given us nothing but your opinion, which is not at all clear. Are we to simply take your word or opinion of God and His ways, without any substance whatsoever? Just who do you think you are to pontificate from your self-made throne? We give you the Word of God and you give us the word of Hayes. Not good enough, Steve - not for us, not for God, and not for you or anyone else.
And if we are sent of God as we claim to be, then here is what He says about your coming against us:
"No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of Me, says the LORD" (Isaiah 54:17 KJV).
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Andy,
I did not point out the lack of accuracy concerning whom you addressed in your last letter because we were offended. No offense had been taken, so no apology was necessary. My point was that you do not pay attention to what is being said, which I will further prove in this letter, since you do not see your fault but continue to accuse us based on a misplaced confidence in your senses.
You say you only had five minutes to respond in the next to last posting of yours. You ask, given your time limitation, if your response was unbiblical, being indignant with us because you presume it was not. But we can tell you plainly that your response was not at all according to truth or godly wisdom. If you do not have time to responsibly read, consider, and accurately respond to something, particularly something pertaining to the issues of life in Christ, then you have no business shooting off a hasty reply:
"Have you met a person who is quick to answer? There is more hope for a fool than for him" (Proverbs 29:20 GW).
Why is there more hope for a fool? Because a fool simply denies God, but a hasty fool acts as if he is God. He speaks without even knowing what it is that he addresses. You are very irresponsible in your actions and with your words, which is a deadly serious matter according to the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is His warning that comes against shooting off your mouth when you do not know what you are saying:
"I can guarantee that on judgment day people will have to give an account of every careless word they say. By your words you will be declared innocent, or by your words you will be declared guilty" (Matthew 12:36-37 GW).
The Lord comes as a thief. That is what is happening right now, though you will not believe it; His concealment is perfect. What did you expect?
Furthermore, not only did you not know what you were saying, but you lied and falsely accused us of things not true. You pile sin upon sin.
You now reiterate your questions, saying we have not answered them, but we have.
Regarding your first question, it is not our private proclamation or on our own authority that we claim to know all things. As Victor told you, it is the Word of God given by our brother John. We believe his testimony as recorded in the Scriptures, which we have found to be the true testimony of God. Why don't you believe the Scriptures?
You certainly did scoff and laugh at the things we were saying, as recorded in your first post where you likened our correspondence to your favorite comic strip. That would include our talking about the Spirit of Christ in us, Who is made wisdom to us and Who teaches us all things.
You seem to be denying that you wrote this post. Why do you prevaricate and not speak plainly? Victor asked you:
"I suspect you are the same 'Andy' that thought we were hilarious, comically so:
"'I want to thank Paul and Victor for their hilarious comic strip. I LOVE Non Sequitur guys...I read it in every Sunday paper...you have a talent, keep it up.'
"Correct me if I am wrong. If you are that person, how is it that at first you are entertained, apparently to the point of mocking us with a heathen stance, and then you switch to a quasi-sober believing enquirer that presumes or pretends to know something about God, His ways, and the Scriptures, and thinks to perhaps trip us up or prove us wrong? Explain please; perhaps these are misperceptions?"
You have explained nothing, though politely and pointedly asked, and yet you are indignant when you are called to account for your ungodly behavior? You are a sniveling little snot-nosed brat who is crying for a whupping. Who will do the whupping? God will. He will meet your request, though unspoken in your case, unlike Ryan's.
Will you still try to deny you made that post, and skirt the issue of your lack of honesty in owning up to your statement?
Victor asked the Lord if it was the same person making both posts, and He said it was, so we know it is you.
So you ask us what you are to do with what we say to you. Shut up and start listening; consider for your life and repent of your lying to God, of your total disrespect for His Word and for all things pertaining to Him. Stop being a religious know-it-all who knows nothing. Admit what you are; get real. Get yourself on the fast track to finding the fear of God, because as of now you have none and are on the fast track to destruction.
You also asked about Matthew 23, as you did in a previous letter:
"Do you refer to Matthew chapter 23 when you say that Jesus called his disciples a brood of vipors? Do you believe the disciples that Jesus was speaking to in that chapter to be believers?"
Victor answered this, too, in his latest letter, but you are too lazy and proud, and therefore spiritually deaf, to hear his answer. (Sin does that to people, or do you not believe the Scriptures?) It goes back to when you did not read or bother to try to understand what Victor wrote you in a previous posting. He was responding to this, which you had written about Ryan and others on this blog:
"You've called the lot of them 'unbelievers,' 'the anti christ,' 'mongrels,' 'whores,' etc...I need not go on there. Obviously not words used when in a discussion with a fellow believer...neither for rebuking nor encouraging."
Victor replied:
"You are right. Jesus did not call His disciples 'vipers,' did He? John the Baptist did not call his or the Lord's disciples 'a brood of vipers,' did he?”
He was agreeing with you. Jesus did not use such words when speaking to His disciples. He used them with the false religious. That is who we have been dealing with here, including you. If you are not one of them, you identify with them, and that makes you one with them:
"He who walks with the wise shall be wise, but a companion with fools shall be destroyed" (Proverbs 13:20 MKJV).
So you conclude by saying you consider us swine. You think that hurts us as it has hurt you to be told what you are all about? Think again:
"Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for your reward in Heaven is great. For so they persecuted the prophets who were before you" (Matthew 5:11-12 MKJV).
But what reward can you expect?
"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8 MKJV).
Still amused?
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Paul,
Stupid. That's what your accusations are. Stupid. When you use the Word, out of context and apart from the spirit in which it is intended, you claim it is Godly and that nothing can come against it. When I use it clearly to point out your legalistic tendencies, you say I am using the "word of Hayes". So, I'm saying that you are the devil, and you are looking back and saying that I am the devil. Problem is, only one of us can be the devil. Here's a hint... it ain't me.
You use the word of God to smack people around and beat them into an existence that is false. I use the word of God as an instrument of God's grace that will bring Glory to His name and honor to His Kingdom. You are so concerned about being "right" that you fail to even discuss your points in a civil manner and instead resort to namecalling and you actually resort to determining mine and others eternal destiny.
Be careful, Paul, for this is not your determination to make. Even Matthew 3 says, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
You claim to have the plank removed from your eye, but the point of the passage is that those who presume to judge ones eternal destiny are already obstructed in their vision. The Word is plain here.
I've read your drivel, and all it is is a list of laws that you use to determine whether or not someone is living as a true believer. You have missed the point!! The point of Paul's writings is that we have all failed to live according to the law! That's why Christ had to fulfill it! There is none who is righteous! Only Christ.
So, in Him and in Him alone do we find our salvation. And once we have found Him, He resides in us and begins shaping us in His image. We become righteous only as he works within us, yet we still struggle with sin, just as Paul did in Romans 7. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? I'll tell you why... because you do what man is prone to do. You begin creating laws of your own to try to box God in and make yourself the final arbitor of truth. You add to the gospel of grace and thereby bring a curse upon yourself (again, see Galatians). You are Judaizers, and you don't even know it.
Again, I say, good luck with that. You claim that I am lost, yet you have no clue who I am. I know you because you've trashed up the internet with your venom. You have no clue about me, but let me tell you that I am a believer in Jesus Christ. He has washed me of my sins - past, present and future - and I will live with Him in eternity (see Ephesians 2), because I know that I am saved by grace alone and not by my works. I also know that God created me to do good works, and through Christ I will accomplish that which He wills for my life.
That, my friends, is the gospel of Grace. Quit perverting it!!
Paul...Victor...you have trouble with the word "NO", don't you? Your parents may have done well to use it with you more often... maybe a "whupping" here or there as well.
Also, can you show us how Andy is a "snot-nosed brat" by a qualified, dictionary definition of the term?
Paul, it's okay to let Victor help you with this one...or I had a post involving dictionary definitions if need to refer to that.
Steve- sorry you got sucked in here.
Michelle- sorry that my blog has been derailed. I'll try to find the energy to rant about Coach Fran soon. But really, these days, that topic drains my life force almost as much as talking to Paul and Vic.
Paul and Vic- Here's the thing: Your god is too small.
My god is wild and sovereign. He can do whatever he pleases. He can create or destroy. He can kill or let live. He can allow accidents. Yours can’t.
My god is a person to be known. Yours is a formula to be “figured out.”
Ryan is correct when he says those of you arguing with us are beating your heads on a wall. Even more to the point, you are beating your heads on the Stone that the builders rejected. If you cannot take that, how will you take it when He falls on you?
Ryan's argument about how we might be committing sins of omission lacks any understanding whatsoever of the ways of God, and is devilish. He does not consider that his thoughts are sin. He speaks as did the religious lawyers of old, who laid grievous burdens on men while not lifting a finger themselves to move them (Luke 11:46). By Ryan's judgment, the Lord Himself was a great sinner, because He always could have done more healing or other works had He just not wasted time, like spending 40 days in the wilderness by Himself, or taking only three people with Him to the mount of transfiguration, while multitudes were waiting to see and hear Him. According to Ryan, Jesus, with His unprecedented gifts, should have traveled over as much of the world as possible to preach the good news and heal many more multitudes. Why just preach to tiny Israel? He should have set up a bigger organization, done more evangelizing, and started sooner. Why wait till He was thirty? He was already beyond the masters of Israel at age 12.
And so it goes, on and on; it is never enough according to man's thinking. Why was the Lord sleeping in the boat, when He could have spent that time teaching His disciples? Why didn't He demonstrate His powers to Herod, so that mighty Rome would hear of God's power, repent and believe? According to Ryan, Christ was a slacker, a sinner by omission.
But we know it is not so. We have another testimony from the Lord, and we know His testimony is true: The Lord Jesus Christ said that He always did those things that pleased the Father. He did not go in the wisdom of the flesh or of men. He did not go to Lazarus while he was sick, as men would have Him do. He did not deliver Israel from the rule of Rome, at least not as men expected Him to. He resisted the people of Israel when they would make Him their king, seeking to hold Him captive to their way of thinking and doing, the same that Ryan expresses here. Jesus did not listen to Peter, who would have saved Him from the sacrifice that He had to make. Just think, Ryan says, how many more people Jesus could have saved had He followed Peter's loving advice and lived! To him, the cross is evidently foolishness.
This is man's thinking. For those who can receive it, it is the mark of the beast. It is man's hand at work, doing his own will in the Name of God. It is the doctrine and expression of man's free will, God's sovereignty be damned. On these two pillars is the false gospel of men's works founded: insistence on having a free will and the denial of God's sovereign will. This is the spirit of Luciferian doctrine, of whom it is said:
"How you are fallen from the heavens, O shining star, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will go up to the heavens, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will go up above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High ['I will have or do have a free will']. Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the Pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15 MKJV).
This is at the heart of the conflict that began here by people castigating us for saying that God caused Kyle Lake to perish in the baptistery, though Jesus Christ warned such things would happen to those who did not repent.
Man's (not God's) free will gospel lays the heavy burden of unbelief on men, because it is ultimately up to them to work out the salvation of the world. Corrupt-beyond-hope man, one enslaved by sin, must choose to do the right, though utterly incapable, and be savior of fellow man, who is also hopelessly incapable of right choice or action. (Tell me, you "Christian" football fanatics/idolaters, how many souls you are saving while watching your football games. Yes, many of your fellow football watchers along with the players entertaining you will soon be burning in hell, according to your Luciferian doctrine and not ours, and they will curse your names for partaking of your beloved games rather than warning them of the wrath of God to come while there was still time.)
The false gospel promotes the works of men because it depends on man's righteousness to get it done. Men send themselves out, trusting in their own power and wisdom, thinking to do the work of God. They are not as true disciples of Christ, who are led by the Spirit:
"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the Galatian region, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit from speaking the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6 EMTV).
Jesus says, "Without the Father, I can do nothing," but carnal men with their bloated egos say, "Without me, the Father can do nothing." Yet they do nothing, contrary to their misguided, demonic doctrines of destined eternal torment for the vast majority of the population. How calloused! How wicked! How hypocritical! How demonic indeed! They speak one way, and do another.
Very simply put, the religious do not trust God and are, therefore, not hearing from Him at all; they are trusting in themselves and doing what they think is right. God is their enemy because He requires the laying down of the life, the very center and agent of activity of carnal religious man, that "man of sin," who does all he can to retain his life and build an empire founded on his alleged and presumed wisdom and goodness. So it is with the religious of this world, who, seeking to establish their own righteousnesses, have not submitted themselves to the Lord Jesus Christ and His righteousness.
This is the way of religious sinners who utterly contradict themselves, as Ryan does here. He takes us to task, those he scorns and rejects as ministers of Christ, for perhaps (he does not know) sleeping an extra thirty minutes when we could have been "serving the Lord." (Are not true servants of God serving Him waking or sleeping? Does He not give His beloved sleep?) If we are servants of the Lord, where does that leave Ryan, as one mocking and ridiculing our preaching in Christ?
Yes, go your way, wise ones, and when your wisdom fails, know that God will not rescue you because you mocked His wisdom when it pleaded with you:
"As it is, I've called, but you've turned a deaf ear; I've reached out to you, but you've ignored me. Since you laugh at my counsel and make a joke of my advice, How can I take you seriously? I'll turn the tables and joke about your troubles! What if the roof falls in, and your whole life goes to pieces? What if catastrophe strikes and there's nothing to show for your life but rubble and ashes? You'll need me then. You'll call for me, but don't expect an answer. No matter how hard you look, you won't find me. Because you hated Knowledge and had nothing to do with the Fear-of-GOD, Because you wouldn't take my advice and brushed aside all my offers to train you, Well, you've made your bed--now lie in it; you wanted your own way--now, how do you like it? Don't you see what happens, you simpletons, you idiots? Carelessness kills; complacency is murder. First pay attention to me, and then relax. Now you can take it easy--you're in good hands" (Proverbs 1:24-33 MSG).
Paul
Victor here,
Ananias waited until God sent him to Saul of Tarsus so that he could pray that Saul receive the Holy Spirit. Ananias could have already been on the street called Straight, witnessing to several others. Instead of doing what he might have thought to be useful, he was obedient to God's wisdom and direction. Seventeen or so years later, Saul was now Paul the apostle, traveling throughout his part of the world, preaching to the Gentiles, and writing letters that now comprise nearly a third of the New Testament.
The hundred and twenty could have continued preaching on the streets, healing and casting out devils, as the disciples had been doing for over three years, instead of sitting still for the ten days since the Lord's ascension. They were obedient to His command, waiting in Jerusalem until they received His Spirit.
Philip could have found multitudes in cities to which he might preach the Good News. Instead, the Spirit of God led him to a solitary eunuch in the desert.
First point: Ryan relies on man's wisdom and understanding of value, efficiency and usefulness, though he himself does not live by what he thinks he knows (no man without Christ does or indeed can – that is the contradiction). The Lord's description of true believers:
"The wind blows where it wills, and you hear its sound, but you do not know from where it comes and where it goes. So is everyone who has been born of the Spirit" (John 3:8 EMTV).
Second point: Because of the finished work and the power of His blood and resurrection life, man is not doomed to live in sin, contrary to the Lord's will, as he ought not. Christ died for us, expressly purposing that we receive Him and live by Him, as we ought, according to His will, not in the "sweet by and by," but here, now. What was the Lord's prayer and command to pray? "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven." Makes sense, doesn't it?
It is the Luciferian doctrine that makes no sense at all! "We are sinners; we can't help but sin. But isn't Jesus wonderful? He paid for our sins and we'll just keep on sinning with happy faces, going to church." As Hayes so naïvely puts it (guiding his "sheep" into the ditch), "We're all under grace; no more Law." This is nothing more than delusion, devilish foolishness, carnal men thinking to be men of God. They are only men of the god of this world, in vain worship of the Lord, "teaching for doctrines the commandments (and philosophies) of men."
Only those who have not truly received Him cannot imagine a life without sin, which includes almost all professing Christians. They make null and void the power of His blood, relegating it to a dark, hopeless dungeon of a fantastical "theology," something "nice" to believe. Reality is the farthest thing from their experience.
"Oh, but I received Jesus into my heart when I was 9! I got saved!" Is that so? Then where are the fruits? Did not Jesus say that He would send the Spirit of Truth to lead one into all truth? Then why do you believe all these foolish lies that deceive, confound and destroy? Why are you and your loved ones suffering the fruits of lies and sins – disease, divorce, suicide, premature death, bankruptcy and the like? Is that the stuff of true Christian life? We are here to say that it is not. Either Jesus is a liar or a fool or He speaks the Truth you have never experienced when saying:
"The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10 MKJV).
Why can't you hear our words, as John says you would if you were of the Spirit of Truth? It is because you are deceived by a false gospel, by Luciferian doctrine. Christ is not at all in your heart; you are of your father, the devil, even as were your fathers to whom Jesus spoke. They also thought they were saved. You are "saved" by the one that comes as an angel of light. He has you where he wants you, in the Name of Jesus. And you will not come out from your posturing and strong delusion, your "Christlikeness," until you have paid every last farthing.
But this is all in the Great Plan of God, as we have said. The forces of evil and good are pitted against one another. You speak lies, we speak the Truth; you serve the prince of this world, we serve the Prince of Peace; you lose; we win. And when we win, you win, because we win for, and not against, you; we are here speaking the Truth to condemn your lies and evil practices, so that you might believe the Truth and be delivered. You will know that your sin, your righteousness, your rebellion, your pride, your ignorance, your wisdom, and your goodness are all worthless and antiChrist – man against, and instead of, God. We were also there where you are now. We have seen both sides and have been, in Martin Luther King Junior's words, "to the mountaintop," the Mountain of God. The Purpose of Evil and Here Is the Way It Is. Poem: Humility
Arrogance? If our true knowledge of God, His will and His ways is arrogance, then arrogance it is. We know whereof we speak, and make no apology to those who are yet in their sins.
We really aren't too flattering or winsome, are we? If that is what you prefer, you have thousands of disciples of Satan to entertain you that way. Don't look to us for it; we serve the Lord God, Jesus Christ, Who bought us with a fearful price, and Who has taken us to speak the Truth and no lies.
Did we say we were the only two Christians on earth? Show us where. It is not there. This is just another lie from a liar who serves the father of lies.
Victor Hafichuk
www.thepathoftruth.com
Paul-
Good post! Well, at least the first two paragraphs were good. That's as far as I got. But that much was a good argument against my point about sins of omission. In fact, I concede that point to you. Carried to its logical end, my argument would have made Christ a sinner. So, good job. You and Victor are both victors. :)
But I think you miss the larger point that I was trying to make which is that IT'S NOT ABOUT BEHAVIOR! No matter how well you know the scriptures, or how righteous a life you lead, YOU CAN NEVER BE RIGHTEOUS! That's the whole point of ... well ... everything! Jesus was sinless because his HEART was fully devoted to God. In fact, if you asked many of the "experts in the law" of his day (I would assume you consider yourself a modern-day expert in the scriptures) they DID call him a sinner because, to them as with you, it is about doctrine and behavior.
God wants your HEART, Paul. Not just your behavior. Not just your mind. Not just your organic vegetables. He tells you this over and over again - to "rend your hearts and not your garments" to "draw near to God" to "love the Lord with all your heart". He wants the deepest, most vulnerable, most honest, most broken part of you. He wants you to learn how to receive his LOVE, not just his law.
From Victor:
For all concerned, I reply to Bob's remarks about Paul speaking for me and I answer Bob's accusation of plagiarism: Paul and I are one in Christ. He is free to speak for me and to use whatever I have written. As Aaron was to Moses, so Paul is to me, as the Lord told me decades before it came to pass.
There's so much to say...if I have been proud, I have asked for God to reveal it to me and to humble me. (please dont go on for an hour about God will humble me and that I indeed have been proud...I have confessed to you my confession before the Lord and it is between He and I now, you need not chime in)
Paul, it seems as though you still create things to say from nowhere. In my previous response to your post, I had enough time to consider the few things that i decided to ask...that is why you received a short response. What I had said was, I was in too much of a rush to field the ENTIRE post...not in too much to respond with what little I did. That is why you received a shorter posting. B/c I, in fact, did not want to be hasty or quick to respond to all of it...so its pretty much the opposite of what you said. Why do you proceed to harp on something that is not there?
Secondly, Victor did not answer my second question in the posting following it. You're now saying that he answered it in the post previous to mine? The whole reason I asked the question was b/c I was trying to see if Victor was indeed using sarcasm (b/c it sounded as sarcasm) or if his statement... "You are right. Jesus did not call His disciples 'vipers,' did He? John the Baptist did not call his or the Lord's disciples 'a brood of vipers,' did he?" was in agreement with what I had said. My question was indeed about the meaning of that statement! So that cannot be the answer as well, especially when no reference was made to it after the question...and no, it was not addressed by you or Victor after my posting.
As far as responding to your post, I appreciate sharing with me that you have a family, that you enjoy reading, and that you do know all things. I'd like to say that if you have a son or daughter, you should probably throw the ball around with them or go for walks with them as a hobby...i feel like its ok for you to do that.
It is clear to me that 3 things are true.
#1. My soul has been redeemed by Christ's sacrifice and his gift of grace to me which I accepted. I have done nothing to deserve it, before or since, nor will I ever do enough...but my redemption is a testament to my weakness and his strength. He does love the common man doesn't he.
#2. In my opinion, skewed or not, you have taken your own words and Scripture out of context multiple times in defending your "side." Not only with me, but with others on this blog, and not only here but at your webpage (yes, i've been reading, proud of me? well thx) It also seems that you are here as much to squabble or bicker as you are to discuss or explain. (Which seems evident in your saying that I don't care b/c i forgot to put Victor or in saying I don't care b/c I didn't respond to your entire post at the same time. Things which are silly and just seem useful for squabbling, childish playground arguments really) That's my opinion. My interpretation of your arguments and of the Scripture used in them leaves me scratching my head. Not thinking I've heard a wise man relate wisdom through Scripture, but that your response has been quite void of it. And, in fact, mostly void of any logical follow up. And I think at times everyone in here has felt that way. Like perhaps you didn't understand the question or that you might be throwing Scripture out that seems applicable but is not. In any event, this is MY OPINION. I will be and have been in prayer for God to increase my wisdom...so if I've missed in my discernment, he'll reveal it. If there's much more for me to know...let's allow God to reveal it. There's no need for you to tell me that I've wrongfully interpreted here either. I know your opinion and I have humbled myself, so that's all there is for now. Since that is my belief, we will, for now, get nowhere.
I would like to say though, you've stated multiple times as you've quoted scripture and shared your beliefs, that I will never understand them b/c I'm not a believer. I'm just wondering, as someone who has had the priveledge of seeing others come to an understanding of who Christ is and what he did for all of us. When were you planning on explaining the Gospel to me? Were you ever gonna explain what Christ had done for me? If you believed me an unbeliever...shouldn't you have started with the "Roman road" or just make sure I have a basic understanding of my sin and my need for salvation? Jesus used parables to convey the Law and the mysteries of God and his grace...were you planning on using language I could understand to portray God's love to me?? You seemed to say many times that I would not understand your words yet you continued to say them? It seems...in my opinion (as mistaken as it may be) that you either should have stopped casting your pearls before all of us... postings ago...or you should have tried to speak on a level that I could understand, as Christ did. I have not read ALL of the responses to ALL of the people, but many of your responses (though admittedly no ALL) were likend to "IT IS ABOVE YOU...SO BELIEVE" Just saying...not calling you wrong...just my little, perhaps messed up opinion.
#3. Jesus loves me this I know. For the Bible tells me so.
Little ones to him belong.
They are weak but He is strong.
YES, Jesus loves ME!!! whoop!
Yes, Jesus loves ME!!! (and Paul and Victor)
Yes, Jesus loves ME!!!
The Bible tells me so.
I do have one more thing to say to you Paul and Victor that has been eating at me. I am the Andy who posted the comic strip posting. I didn't outright deny this but I did beat around the bush telling you...not b/c I was ashamed of the comment...as I've stated above, as I do believe many of your comments to be non sequitur. But b/c I truly did start reading all the postings with an unbiased heart, and I was afraid that bit of joking would make you think otherwise (as it did) And honestly, most of what I read from either of you struck me as, well non sequitur. I do regret making it though b/c after that you decided that I was doing nothing but "laughing" at you. That comment was not meant to belittle however, it is the same thing I'd say to my mother or my brother if I asked them how they were and they said "red umbrella." I was not attempting to joke coarsely with you...though maybe it was too much poking fun right off the bat. Forgive me?
In any event I'd like to say, as Bob did, that you have spurned me on...especially to know the Scriptures more. Whether used in context or not, it seems impressive that you just intellectually know alot of Scripture. And I, as a lover of Christ, have been convicted to know God's word more. I guess that's just one way that the reading of God's Word has not returned void from your postings.
I wish you and your family well. And I will pray for you and be thankful for the opportunity to do so.
For Paul and Victor,
Guys, I forgot to put your names at the top of the last post. When I copied and pasted it over, it didnt paste. Please do not take this as any disrespect or include a paragraph to tell me.
Also, after praying and reading some more, I feel I need to say one more thing.
I don't understand all things...but sometimes I doubt, like Thomas, and I bet sometimes I deny Christ with my actions, like Peter, and sometimes I don't get the bigger picture, like all the disciples when they argued who was the greatest between them right before Christ was crucified...but the great thing about God is that I can be guilty of all those things and still be his disciple...and not speaking for anyone else in here (b/c I know many of them, and to my interpretation they are men who pick up their cross and follow God daily) but if I'm missing out on something...if i'm not getting the bigger picture...then Christ will reveal that to me...but it does not, just as it didn't with Jesus's original disciples, mean that I am an unbeliever, or a whore, or already damned to hell...it just means I'm a fallen creation who is in an active pursuit of learning how to love and how to grow in faith. And though it disappoints my God, he suffers me and my disappointments b/c he loves me so much...and i'm just as welcome at his table as his dumb, common, sinning, disciples were at his.
I pray I do not take advantage of the grace of God, but I still do need it...and daily.
So, Vic, would you say Paul is like one of your roles? Maybe its Victor the father, Victor the son, and Victor the Paul?
You know what? It doesn't matter. I wanted Victor to respond and he didn't. You have wronged me. You have sinned. You are sinners. Just like me.
So, you guys want to come over this weekend? We could hang out, get to know each other better, and drink some beers while we watch the Ulitmate Fighting Championship?
Paul and Victor,
My dad and my bro and I are going hunting this weekend...you are welcomed to come. Seriously. Drop me a line if you want to come.
Bob, I guess this means we're missing out on the beer and UFC.
I don't know...I guess it depends on which "Andy" this is...
Steve, in other words, succinctly put, you admit you cannot prove anything, but will continue to give us your opinions and unfounded accusations.
You say our accusations are stupid. Who is stupid, the one proving something he says, or the one denying the proof?
For the sake of anyone reading this, that he or she might know for certain the vacuity of your charges, I will repeat the procedure of pointing out your lack of substance and other inconsistencies in your arguments by many proofs of godly substance, as granted me by the grace of God and not of my own wisdom:
Steve: Stupid. That's what your accusations are. Stupid. When you use the Word, out of context and apart from the spirit in which it is intended, you claim it is Godly and that nothing can come against it.
Paul: Show us where we have used the Word out of context. Prove it. If you are so confident you are correct you must have some very good evidence. Where is it?
Steve: When I use it clearly to point out your legalistic tendencies, you say I am using the "word of Hayes".
Paul: We show that you have pointed out nothing. All you did was quote the Scripture and say it applies to us. Now you repeat yourself. That still makes it the "word of Hayes." If we did not bite the first time, certainly we will not the second, although for those in the world the old maxim applies, "Tell a lie long enough and people will believe it."
Steve: So, I'm saying that you are the devil, and you are looking back and saying that I am the devil. Problem is, only one of us can be the devil. Here's a hint... it ain't me.
Paul: You testify of yourself. We do not testify of ourselves, but of Christ. That is the crucial difference. Those with eyes opened by God will see it.
Steve: You use the word of God to smack people around and beat them into an existence that is false.
Paul: Are you not judging in the very way you accuse us? Prove that our intentions are wrong in what we say. Be specific, and offer evidence that shows what we have said is false and malicious. We do not deny we have said hard things, but that, in itself, does not make one wrong, or Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and the prophets of God, those recorded in the Scriptures you sanctimoniously boast of upholding, were, according to you, beaters of men who forced others "into a false existence" (whatever that means).
Steve: I use the word of God as an instrument of God's grace that will bring Glory to His name and honor to His Kingdom.
Paul: Only according to you, Steve. The Word contradicts what you say, and we have proven it and will prove it. Therefore, you bring shame to His Name, because you have taken it in vain by walking contrary to the Lord Jesus Christ. You are one of those of whom the Lord spoke, who searches the Scriptures because he thinks to find life in them, but refuses to come to Him to have life. How do we know this? Because the Word of God says so:
"Most assuredly I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me" (John 13:20 EMTV).
Steve: You are so concerned about being "right" that you fail to even discuss your points in a civil manner and instead resort to namecalling and you actually resort to determining mine and others eternal destiny. Be careful, Paul, for this is not your determination to make.
Paul: Again, more opinion. Prove it. Show everyone, specifically, where what we have said is not true and documented with evidence, and, most importantly, is not of benefit if taken to heart. You are the one who is uncivil and resorts to name calling. You resort to it because you are the one who has no substance to back what you say. So you say things about us and our words, like "stupid," "you've trashed up the internet with your venom," "you are the devil," "I've read your drivel," and "you are Judaizers." So who sits in judgment here with your empty, unsubstantiated accusations?
Just because others agree with you, not liking to hear about their sins and darkened beliefs, and, worse yet, not willing to repent of them, does not make all of you right, any more than those gathered together to bear witness against and crucify Jesus were right because they all agreed that it was more convenient to put Him away than to repent of their sins.
Regarding your accusation of determining yours and others' "eternal destinies," just how consistently stubborn can you people be? We have said on several occasions, providing writings and explanations to anyone wishing to know the truth of the matter, that the doctrine of "eternal damnation" is not one we believe or preach, but one that wicked men have invented and propagate, as you do here, Steve. You are the ones foisting the revolting idea of eternal torment on others, implicitly if not explicitly. We have never said anything of the kind. We have said that God will judge the world in righteousness. His righteousness is consistent with His will that none perish but that all should come to repentance. But you shoot from the lip without knowledge, and you call yourself a "pastor"?
And how many times will I have to ask you to prove what you say? Where have I specifically determined anyone's eternal destiny? Give us specifics. You can't. You are a liar and false accuser. Are those the kind of sins that your god is OK with, since he, apparently, accepts you as a sinner?
Steve: Even Matthew 3 says, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
Paul: What about you, Steve? Are you not judging me? Are you not a hypocrite, according to your interpretation of the Word of God, by which you claim to bring "glory to His name and honor to His kingdom"? Is your god glorified by hypocrisy, or does he merely wink at it?
Steve: You claim to have the plank removed from your eye, but the point of the passage is that those who presume to judge ones eternal destiny are already obstructed in their vision. The Word is plain here.
Paul: I not only claim the plank has been removed, but prove it by correctly discerning your spirit and answering you with identification of the distortions of Scripture on which you base your charges. There is nothing about "eternal destiny" in the passage you quote. The passage is not even found where you list it, Matthew 3. This is not a problem in itself, but the matter of adding to the Scriptures is a major problem:
"For I say to every man to whose ears have come the words of this prophet's book, If any man makes an addition to them, God will put on him the punishments which are in this book" (Revelation 22:18 BBE).
You also misrepresent this Scripture in other ways. Contrary to your evil example of making peremptory statements, I will show how:
Matthew 7:1-5 MKJV
(1) Judge not, that you may not be judged.
(2) For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.
(3) And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
(4) Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
(5) Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
In other words, the Lord is saying that if one has undergone judgment, having had the beam removed from his eye, he is then fit to exercise judgment on behalf of others. The only reason not to judge, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, is because one is not fit to do so, not because judgment is not desirable or good. He plainly says otherwise. And this is not the only time He has said so. By your interpretation of the saints making no judgments at all, you propose that the Scriptures are full of lies, and that God suffers from schizophrenia. But the simple, truthful answer is your god is not the Lord God Who inspired these Scriptures:
"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (1 Corinthians 6:2 EMTV)
"No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness which is of me, says the LORD" (Isaiah 54:17 HNV).
(The last Scripture puts to rest another of your lies: we do have righteousness - His righteousness. But you are correct that you have none, not being His.)
"Let godly people triumph in glory. Let them sing for joy on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their throats and two-edged swords in their hands to take vengeance on the nations, to punish the people of the world, to put their kings in chains and their leaders in iron shackles, to carry out the judgment that is written against them. This is an honor that belongs to all His godly ones. Hallelujah!" (Psalms 149:5-9 GW).
"The LORD spoke His word to me. He said, 'Will you judge, son of man? Will you judge the city of murderers? Then tell it about all the disgusting things that it has done'" (Ezekiel 22:1-2 GW).
"You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment. You shall not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty; but you shall judge your neighbor in righteousness" (Leviticus 19:15 MKJV).
"But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, says the Lord GOD.... And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all My assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths" (Ezekiel 44:15, 23-24 KJV).
"And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S" (Obadiah 1:21 KJV).
"Make a loud cry, do not be quiet, let your voice be sounding like a horn, and make clear to my people their evil doings, and to the family of Jacob their sins" (Isaiah 58:1 BBE).
"But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says the LORD" (Jeremiah 9:24 KJV).
The Lord delights in judgment, just as He does in mercy and righteousness. It is all one. Lacking one, you lack them all. Denying God's holy judgment through His saints, you also deny the lovingkindness and righteousness in which that judgment comes. You have none of these essentials, as evidenced throughout your correspondences. You are found wanting, exposed by the Light, the One you falsely profess to serve.
Steve: I've read your drivel, and all it is is a list of laws that you use to determine whether or not someone is living as a true believer.
Paul: As usual, all you give for verification is your say-so. Again, we ask you to prove that what we have written is drivel (a worthless message). Every mark brought up in the The True Marks of a Cult, for example, which we gave you to read, is based on Scriptures that we supply to prove the validity of the mark. The reason we wrote that paper was to provide people with God's definition of what can be clearly identified as not being His work, contrary to your definition.
Since you have not disproved His criteria, which we have openly provided for you to examine, what you are saying, in essence, is that the Scriptures that describe God's measuring stick are "a worthless message." Unless you prove our application is in error, the conclusion we must reach is that you cannot do so because you outright reject the teachings of the Scriptures. We have already shown this is the case in your contradiction of God's instruction for righteousness regarding judgment.
We contend with your foolishness because you come against God and His Word, and we know, having sure proof, that God's Word is good, and is meant for man to live by. You deceive the simple, and the wicked cheer you on, but God would have you all to know the error of your ways. This is the love of God, which you call hate.
Why not, for starters, prove that just one of the twenty seven major marks listed in the paper is "drivel"? How long will you continue to make empty pronouncements, accosting the brethren of the Lord with false accusations and inane judgments?
And do tell us just how it is that you cannot tell if someone is not living as a Christian, because right now, from what you say here, if someone came to you that sold drugs, pimped for prostitutes, and told you that he was a Christian, you would be forced to accept his statement, because you are unwilling and/or unable to use any criteria to make any judgments. But we believe that you would not accept his statement at face value (or would you?). So if you exercise judgment according to the Law of God, who are you to condemn us for teaching that true Christians will manifest the Law in its entirety, which is not a set of rules, but is the very Nature of Christ? The Scriptures, which you have demonstrated you have no use for, agree with what I say:
"Therefore do we nullify the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law" (Romans 3:31 EMTV).
Not just a portion of it, but all of it. But you do not know the Law, or how to use it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8).
Steve: You have missed the point!! The point of Paul's writings is that we have all failed to live according to the law! That's why Christ had to fulfill it! There is none who is righteous! Only Christ.
Paul: No, Steve, you have missed the point. You have not gone far enough. Christ fulfilled the Law so that we could fulfill it also. We do not teach, and you cannot prove that we do, that men are made righteous by trying to keep the Law, particularly their own versions of it. Neither can you prove that we teach contrary to His Law or ways. We only point to Christ and teach that those born of Him will keep His Law by His Spirit and not in their own strength or wisdom:
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked" (1 John 2:6 MKJV).
Did Christ walk in sin? According to you, He must have, because you say that all Christians will walk in sin. You preach a damnable lie, couched in Scripture and Biblical language. This is how Satan works; he comes as an angel of light. Here is a good example of his handiwork:
Steve: So, in Him and in Him alone do we find our salvation. And once we have found Him, He resides in us and begins shaping us in His image. We become righteous only as he works within us, yet we still struggle with sin, just as Paul did in Romans 7. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
Paul: It is not difficult for me to understand. I simply refute it, because, like Paul, I have experienced God's deliverance in Christ from this body of death (verse 25). Paul was not stuck in sin, as you presume, and as you put words in his mouth because you wish to justify your sinful state. He says he was dead to sin (Romans 6:2), and that he kept his body under (1 Corinthians 9:27). He also wrote this in the same portion where you claim he says he could not escape sinning:
"For if you live according to the flesh you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live [i.e. no longer sin, since sin brings death]. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:13-14 EMTV).
The sons of God are like the One in Whom they are conceived, the only begotten Son of God. The Spirit of God, Who leads them, does not lead them into sin, and is not tempted with sin. There is a place of victory and deliverance, but you deny it because you have not experienced it. You are a phony, a liar and deceiver who comes with what appears to be the gospel, but leaves out the crucial Essence, the cross of Christ and His resurrection power that delivers from the sinful nature. We expose the angel of light and his minions who serve to keep men in death and bondage.
Steve: I'll tell you why... because you do what man is prone to do. You begin creating laws of your own to try to box God in and make yourself the final arbitor of truth. You add to the gospel of grace and thereby bring a curse upon yourself (again, see Galatians). You are Judaizers, and you don't even know it.
Paul: Show everyone here one law that we have created. Show everyone here how we have boxed God in. Show everyone here how we have made ourselves the final arbiter of truth. Show everyone here where we have added to the gospel of grace. Steve, it is all just empty words and accusations with nothing to back them. It is not we that do not know what we are doing, but you who does not know what you are saying or doing. Clearly you have not risen to the challenge of proving anything you say.
It is not we who have added to the gospel of grace, but you who have subtracted from it. We affirm the full and true gospel of Christ that Paul preached:
"But I confess this to you, that after the Way which they call heresy, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things that are written in the Law and in the Prophets" (Acts 24:14 MKJV).
Steve: Again, I say, good luck with that. You claim that I am lost, yet you have no clue who I am. I know you because you've trashed up the internet with your venom.
Paul: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20 KJV)
Do we not know who you are, Satan? Of course a liar will lie and cannot speak the truth, because there is no truth in him. His lies have no power, however, over the one whose eyes are graciously opened and who walks in the truth he sees from God.
Steve: You have no clue about me, but let me tell you that I am a believer in Jesus Christ. He has washed me of my sins - past, present and future - and I will live with Him in eternity (see Ephesians 2), because I know that I am saved by grace alone and not by my works. I also know that God created me to do good works, and through Christ I will accomplish that which He wills for my life.
Paul: "Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the Law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the Word of the Holy One of Israel" (Isaiah 5:21-24 KJV).
There is nothing hid that will not be made manifest. You are finished, Satan.
Steve: That, my friends, is the gospel of Grace. Quit perverting it!!
Paul: "For certain men crept in secretly, those having been of old previously written into this condemnation, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God for unbridled lust, and denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 1:4 MKJV).
"They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of His children: they are a perverse and crooked generation" (Deuteronomy 32:5 KJV).
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Hey Paul,
NOOOOOOOOOO!
As for the "Heresy: The Sequel," I am reminded of this:
"But I confess this to you, that after the Way which they call heresy, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things that are written in the Law and in the Prophets" (Acts 24:14 MKJV).
Concerning the title of this blog now, Paul, as a born again Christian and apostle no less, believed all things written in the Law and in the Prophets. As His brothers and fellow workers in Christ, we come against heresy, which has been predominant for nearly two millennia, vehicled by established, formal, official churchdom, primarily with the Catholic Church, though there have been the minority of the Way throughout history as well, who have shed their blood for us, of which we are thankful beneficiaries. However, for this we are despised by the majority, who love this world and all that is in it:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their pernicious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be evil spoken of. And through covetousness they will use you for gain with well-turned words; for whom judgment from of old does not linger, and their destruction does not sleep" (2 Peter 2:1-3 MKJV).
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Hey Victor,
I think I can only say...WTF?
And if you need a laugh please see Jeremy's response at the end of the last set of posts under "the Path of Truth?"...
okay, so i am new to this blog and have not even begun to read everything, but it seems clear that paul and victor are heretics. you guys can't know the mind of God. that is ridiculous.
you can't be sinless. that is the second most outlandish thing that has been said. just think about paul the apostle. he wasn't sinless. Christ is the only sinless person to have walked the earth.
where and what is harvest haven?
i plan to read more here soon...this is very interesting to say the least.
-pbj
PBJ-
Welcome! Glad you found us. As you can tell, the discussion here has been spirited of late, owing mostly to the entertaining and supernatural claims of our newest visitors. Please feel free to skim through and leave your comments. Or, if you prefer, quit your job and spend the next three years reading every word.
-ryan
p.s. Are you crunchy or creamy?
PBJ,
When you have red all the material, and found where in Scripture the apostles Paul, John and others were the ones speaking what we speak, and not only we, then we will see what you have to say. Until then, here is something Solomon had to say concerning your rashness:
"If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him" (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
www.harvesthaven.com
Andy,
You do not consider that the Lord is visiting you in the things we have been given to say, so foreign He is to your false, preconceived ideas of Him.
What confession have you made before the Lord? You only say "if" you have been proud. That is not a confession; it is a condition. You have not committed yourself to anything, as one does in a confession. On the contrary, you seem quite confident that you are a truly humble person, and making such a conditional "confession" is the proof you offer of your humility. We are not buying it.
You tell us not to answer this matter because it is between you and God. We are here in His stead. He lives in us and has sent us to speak to you, so it is not your call as to whether we should answer you. We answer because He has given us the answer. If you really wanted to know the answer, why would you care how He delivers it to you? But, as I pointed out, you have already concluded you are acceptably humble. You don't want to know the Truth.
The Jews prayed to God for deliverance, but when He came they said to Him, "No, you are not our Messiah; bug off." How well did that work out for them?
The very restrictions you place on God are evidence of your pride. "Lord, I will hear from You, only not through Victor and Paul." Who are you to tell Him how He should speak to you? A child of God will receive Him gladly in whatever form He takes, but a proud fellow makes stipulations, according to his predilections and preconceptions. He is not free to receive God as He is. He is still a slave to sin.
It is only your opinion that you responsibly answered my post, even if in a small part, with your short response. Your word is not enough. It is truly a shame to you that you act as if you know so much when you know nothing. God says to let every man be a liar. But you say we should trust what you and your friends say. There needs to be fruit to demonstrate the truth of your claims, or what you claim is a lie. In this case, the only fruit we see coming from you is evil fruit.
You offer no proof because you have none. You misred and misconstrued what we said and where we were coming from, and responded with vile obfuscation and lies, not at all clean or good in the sight of God. I subsequently prove these things, but you gloss over the substance of anything that contradicts or corrects you.
Here is part of that note of yours that you defend, the content of which you now tepidly admit was a lie:
"Nowhere was i laughing or scoffing? I ask so that I do not assume as you do...that is why i ask. You guess and assume my inentions and even my identity...and you assume wrongly."
How is it that lies are part of what you consider an acceptable answer?
If your pride is hidden from you, it is only because you are perishing in your sins.
You continue to object:
"Secondly, Victor did not answer my second question in the posting following it.... and no, it was not addressed by you or Victor after my posting."
What is the essence of pride, if not insistence one is right when all the facts speak against his rightness? Why do you not accept the facts that have been pointed out to you already, painstakingly reconstructed for you specifically in answer to this matter?
You write: "In my opinion, skewed or not, you have taken your own words and Scripture out of context multiple times in defending your 'side.'"
As I wrote to "Pastor" Steve, who cannot back up a single thing he says, prove it. Your opinion does not matter. Show us where we have taken the Scriptures out of context, specifically. Show us exactly what our "side" is and precisely why it is wrong.
You write:
"My interpretation of your arguments and of the Scripture used in them leaves me scratching my head. Not thinking I've heard a wise man relate wisdom through Scripture, but that your response has been quite void of it.... perhaps you didn't understand the question or that you might be throwing Scripture out that seems applicable but is not."
We have presented you with appropriate answers, with applicable Scriptures and quotes. If you have questions, why not ask? Isn't that the best way to get understanding? Why do you assume we are wrong, when you cannot even explain to us where you see us erring? Or if you think we do err, show us where and how, with your support materials. "Put up or shut up." Otherwise, you lean on unsubstantiated opinions, not worth anything to anyone, least of all you. You lean on them and fall into the pit because there is nothing to support you.
Meanwhile, we provide a sure foundation, and you cannot even see it!
To insist on maintaining yourself in unproven conjectures is indicative of a great lack of humility, which, to this point, has kept you from being able to engage us with candid honesty and sobriety.
You write:
"It seems...in my opinion (as mistaken as it may be) that you either should have stopped casting your pearls before all of us... postings ago...or you should have tried to speak on a level that I could understand, as Christ did."
What does Jesus say about how He spoke to those who did not believe? He contradicts you altogether:
"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he shall be in abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: 'Hearing you shall hear and by no means understand, and seeing you shall see and by no means perceive. For the heart of this people has become dull, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes have closed, lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn back, that I should heal them'" (Matthew 13:12-15 EMTV).
You serve another "Jesus." That is why you do not hear our words. Yet we have spoken to you very plainly. You cannot comprehend because your sins have clogged your ears and clouded your mind. You need to repent. You ought to fear the day the Lord might choose to turn away from you by us or anyone else. Thus far, He has kept us here but you are pushing it.
Here is another empty statement of yours:
"But many of your responses (though admittedly no ALL) were likend to 'IT IS ABOVE YOU...SO BELIEVE.'"
We know of no such statements, and, more importantly, the attitude you portray is not there. Prove that it is. You have all the materials on record; show us. You are not only found to be lying to us but also to yourself, repeatedly. Your "Jesus" may be gleefully impressed, and inspiring you to be impressed with yourself, but ours is not.
Here is your admittance of lying, yet without confessing sin:
"I didn't outright deny this but I did beat around the bush telling you...not b/c I was ashamed of the comment...as I've stated above, as I do believe many of your comments to be non sequitur. But b/c I truly did start reading all the postings with an unbiased heart, and I was afraid that bit of joking would make you think otherwise (as it did)."
Firstly, you did outright deny it; it is recorded on the blog:
"You guess and assume my inentions and even my identity...and you assume wrongly."
Liars come to the place where they don't know the difference.
Secondly, you call your mockery in the first posting "a bit of joking." We speak from the throne of Jesus Christ of holy matters, and you call that "hilarious." Do you find the Kingdom of God and the fate of your soul a joking matter?
Thirdly, you refuse to take responsibility for your sacrilegious attitude or the lying you employed to try to cover it up, implying that the fault lies with us because we overreacted to your "joking."
Fourthly, had you brought forth fruits that demonstrate repentance, which would have begun with owning up to what you had done and renouncing the light attitude in which it was done, we would have known, then, that you were unbiased. Until such a repentance happens, here is what the Scriptures say about your heart in which you trust:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9).
Fifthly, once again, prove to us that our statements (ones you have never identified) are non sequiturs, unrelated to the topic at hand. This is another false charge.
You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, being right with God without paying the price of admission. It won't work.
We would gladly forgive you, Andy, but we see no apology or repentance coming from you. Without those, the Lord will not forgive you. Yes, He loves you, but you must also know that He loves the whole world (John 3:16). Many, however, including you and others here, are under His wrath for playing religious games in His Name, which has now been brought into the open with this encounter. While the nonreligious world does not take His Name in vain, you do, along with your pastor.
You say that Jesus also loves us. We know that He loves us, more than you have any idea. Because He loves us, we walk with Him, loving Him before all men. He has set us free from sin and death by the love He has had for our souls. How can a man in sin, as you confess you are, love the Lord? God is love. God is not sin. You people are terribly confused, because you love your sins more than God.
You cannot walk in sin as you do, lying to others and mocking them, at enmity with God and man, and be His disciple. Did you not know that you are not welcome at His table unless you have a wedding garment? That garment is the righteousness of the saints, which you are not manifesting. When we point you towards the Truth by which you could obtain it, you mock and despise us.
Here is what the Lord Jesus Christ, Love incarnate, said would be done with those who reject Him in such manner:
"Nevertheless bring here those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me to reign over them, and slay them before Me" (Luke 19:27 EMTV).
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Ryan says:
"No matter how well you know the scriptures, or how righteous a life you lead, YOU CAN NEVER BE RIGHTEOUS!"
Jesus says:
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5:20 EMTV).
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5:10 EMTV).
John the apostle says:
"If you have knowledge that He is upright, it is clear to you that everyone who does righteousness is His offspring" (1 John 2:29 BBE).
"Little children, let no one deceive you. The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7 EMTV).
Ryan says:
"God wants your HEART, Paul. Not just your behavior."
Jesus says:
"You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you shall know them" (Matthew 7:16-20 MKJV).
"For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things [read: behaviors] which defile a man..." (Matthew 15:19-20 EMTV).
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:45 EMTV).
"Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks [behaves]" (Matthew 12:34 EMTV).
James the apostle says:
"Do you not see, O foolish man, that faith without works [behavior] is of no use?" (James 2:20 BBE)
Ryan says:
"He wants you to learn how to receive his LOVE, not just his law."
Jesus says:
"He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21 EMTV).
"But to the sinner, God says, What are you doing, talking of My laws, or taking the words of My agreement in your mouth, seeing that you have no desire for My teaching, turning your back on My words?" (Psalms 50:16-17 BBE)
Speaking of His wanting the hearts:
"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 'This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart [behavior] is far from Me. But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men'" (Matthew 15:7-9 MKJV).
Read False Love - The Last Stronghold.
For Paul or Victor, (But in the letter I'm just gonna save time by saying Paul...you answer for each other anyway right?)
I posted two seperate posts b/c this one is the one to which I hope you read first and respond...though I'm sure you'll get to both eventually.
You ask for "proof" from us all that you are lying or taking Scripture out of context. As for “proof”...I could give you several examples of my opinion of this...but in the end, there is no way to “prove” as you want everyone to do. The example I can give you as to what I mean is this. When Satan was tempting Jesus he quoted Psalm 91:11-12.
Matthew 4:6
“If you are the Son of God, Satan said, “throw yourself down (from the highest point of the temple). For it is written: ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”
Was the Scripture that Satan spouted off true? Certainly. Did it fit the situation? In a way...though obviously perverted. But there are many many scriptures such as this that can be thrown at many many situations.
For instance...Let’s say I’m a soldier in the U.S. army and we’re at war with an unspecified country. (Let’s say Vietnam, it comes to mind) I come upon a peaceful village full of young Vietnamese men, women, and boys who have NOT joined the fight against us/me. Should I shoot them? We’re at war, hasn’t God ordained an action such as this before? Someone could here, throw out Ecc. 3...saying there’s a time for war, a time to kill. Would it seem correct...it might.
On the other hand, they are unarmed, peaceful, not a threat. They seem to stand with us by not standing with the enemy don’t they? Someone could also choose to quote Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not murder.” Would it seem correct...it might.
The only way to tell is to pray for discernment and wisdom to understand God, his Word, and his ways. Revelation...God’s gracious gifts...this is how a person can know who uses the Word correctly and who just uses it. So, as you can see...there is no proof Paul. Its all about God and his love.
And perhaps I didn’t give the best example. Perhaps I shoulda talked about Jesus’s response to the crowd when they wanted to stone the harlot. Could Jesus prove them wrong when they came to him spouting the Law in his face as if he didn’t know what it said? No, nor did he intend to...no “proof” was required of Him that day...as a matter of fact, they were indeed right in what they claimed. God could not prove their statements false...but he could prove their hearts were in the wrong place.
Such as this Paul, and many other examples, do I see you running to us spouting off Law and Scripture. Can I prove it to be so...not necessarily...do I need to...not necessarily. I give you the proof that Jesus himself did not always prove others wrong with Scripture. It is all up to discernment, wisdom, revelation...and mine, thus far, has told me that you have got it screwed up somewhere...and that much of what you say is wrong Paul. Have I told you that I will and have pray about it...sure.
Also, let me say Paul, as with the crowd...you can be right and still be wrong. You give us Scripture that seems to fit sometimes...and sometimes seems WAY off. But even if it fits, you have to give Christ the ability to re-translate it for you as he did with that crowd that day...even if for just an instant. They were right that day ya know?? Completely right...and completely wrong. Since you’re completely right Paul...perhaps you could be completely wrong too? Join me in praying for God to search our hearts for these things.
Lastly Paul, I’d like it if you discussed Peter with me. For that matter all the disciples but we can focus on Peter. He was a sinner, a failure, he didn’t get it...yet God chose him, loved him, welcomed him as HIS disciple...look at Peter in Acts...wow. What does this seem like to you? It seems like to me that Peter was a disciple and a sinner. Your thoughts? I’m not being a snot nosed brat here...I really want to hear your interpretation of the disciples and their actions.
Also, I wish you to tell me what you believe the final resting place of a few people is.
Billy Graham and John Calvin. I would think you would have read the writings of these two men...seeing as how you read and they both lived lives claiming to serve God. And as you state, you can tell the condition of a man’s soul from his writings or his words...well I figure you’ve got plenty of words of theirs to make your decision...so please...
Thanks Paul,
Andy
Paul, you seem to be getting more off base man.
I have confessed to you my wrongdoing and asked your fogiveness which you have not given.
And Paul, I still correctly profess that you wrongly assume my identity, in the flesh and in the spirit. That statement is still 100% true and not an outright lie as you stated. If you knew the purpose of that statement from me (which you've wrongfully claimed to know, obviously without any revelation from God) then you wouldn't say such an erroneous thing. So basically you just lied in that argument...you should repent. If lying was my intention, it would have remained so...but there is no more sin to ask forgiveness for...sorry...just that one.
You're very argumentative still, and prideful, and WRONG in a few instances. By the way Paul, this IS NOT MY OPINION BUT TRUTH AND FACT. WHICH IS WHY I OUTRIGHT CALLED YOU WRONG UP THERE...IN CAPITAL LETTERS. I told you that I had and still continue to humble myself...You can argue with what I've confessed to the Lord if you want I suppose...and you don't have to "buy" it. It doesn't matter, its well known by Christ my heart and my confessions...but obviously not to you.
But if I continue to tell you what I've done today and you say I didn't...we'll never get anywhere Paul. I ate fruit loops this morning...are you buying it?
But, If I could reword something it would be to say that I've asked the Lord to show me WHERE I'm proud. I did say "If I've been proud, God would reveal that to me." And I realize that might sound as if perhaps I'm not...I would heartily disagree with my own statement if that were the case. I would argue that I am probably proud EVERY DAY in some way that is not glorifying to God. So I'm sorry it came across that way, or that I stated it that way...b/c I myself would not agree with that interpretation. What I meant and should have said was, "That God would search me and reveal to me where I've been proud" I trust in him to search me and reveal to me things I cannot now see. ie, perhaps my interpretation of some scripture or many many other things.
To address another dumb statement made to me by you..."You do not consider that the Lord is visiting you in the things we have been given to say."
This is also fact and NOT opinion.
Paul, I'm probably the only guy in here who is considering that you’re not Satan himself...but by saying stupid stuff such as this...you're losing the only person in here who is giving you and what you've said up to God. Part of my confession to the Lord, for the past few days, is that I know nothing in comparison to HIM...and if I'm missing something from him or from him through you that he would reveal it. I've meditated on it throughout the day Paul...and you come back and say that?! Obviously the Spirit is not revealing these things to you. And perhaps your actions and attitudes (AND LIES) about my prayers to the Lord concerning you are his answer to me of who you really are? I dunno...we’ll see.
Let's get the facts straight, b/c you can't seem to do it.
You say you are sent to speak for God...then you say that I DO NOT know that you are from God b/c I'm not of God (...but then you tell me just to trust that you are from God and that you are sent to speak directly to me even though I cannot discern this on my own as you have stated) Here's a snippet of a conversation between us in an earlier post...you always ask me to include these things...I gladly do it...
...I wrote: "But until that time, I cannot simply trust that you are wise men of good counsel. I would be a fool to."
Paul said: Your words tell that you are a fool, quite unlearned in the Testimony of Jesus Christ, which says:
"We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
Ok, so I'm a fool in your sight...yet you expect a fool to act as a wise man??? accepting you and knowing as a wise man would? certainly you do not expect that.
YOU go on to say in a later post "You cannot comprehend because your sins have clogged your ears and clouded your mind. You need to repent." SO I have gone to Christ and asked him to forgive me of my pride...to give me discernment and wisdom...to search my heart and show me what he sees. But you are not ok with this? Apparently not.
You do not tell me to wait on the Lord for that discernment or for his word but to listen and trust you. How can you expect this of me if you believe me to be who you think I am...God makes men wise...and only through him will I know you speak truth...that is what the Scripture says. So I went to God as you said...(which was a good and correct thing btw Paul, good advice)...but now you're back to saying that God sent you and to trust you NOW...let’s give God time to make me wise huh? Wake up man...you gotta decide if you think I’m a believer or if I’m not...b/c you’re treating me as both here and have been. That kind of inconsistency makes me think you’re just talking.
Furthermore, my statement to both of you was that you need not chime in by telling me I am proud or that you are right or that I need to repent or etc etc etc. I never said that I told you ,or God, that I will never receive anything from you. However, the entire point of my #2 thing that was clear to me in my last post was that, for now, I do not agree with you...so we are getting nowhere. The whole point of saying that is to tell you that I've gone to Christ and IF I've wrongly disagreed with you that he will show me. Do you believe him incapable to do this without you? Then let us let him work...ok? For someone who you call a fool, it seems as though you might embrace this knowing God will show me the error of my ways and I will accept you as one would who knows when he hears truth.
Paul, I have confessed to you, in simple terms, that I'm basically the only guy here that is remotely friendly to you, (I did say remotely Paul...I realize I’m not all that friendly) that I've approached God concerning myself and you, and you come back to argue with me and tell me I'm wrong some more...and to immediately listen to you some more. hmph.
Also, regarding my short, 2 question response to an original post by you...this is still pointless but you can't let it go. You still contend that I did not give these two questions enough consideration before I posted them...let this go...you are making something from nothing. Its Childish Paul. You have no clue how much time that I spent on this current post or how much time anyone in here has spent on any of these postings. And time is variable from person to person...where it might take one person 10 minutes to rightfully and prayerfully consider something, it might take someone else 45. There is no law that sets the time limit that must be spent on each question before it is asked...you are piddling away still at pointless accusations. That and It was 2 questions.
Once again, I come to you with an explanation, showing you that I had more than enough time to responsibly post 2 questions...and you come back with "well that's your opinion"...nice Paul. You still want to argue and call me names...but by now I guess I should see by now that "oh, i see...ok andy" is out of the question.
Next on the agenda...I'm gonna pull a Paul here and tell you...if Victor did answer my question after it was asked then could you please point that out to me...feel free to quote his response after the question was asked. I don't think its too much to ask. I REALIZE THAT EVERY TIME I WANT TO BE SHOWN SOMETHING ITS B/C I'M TOO PROUD OR DUMB TO CATCH IT AND EVERY TIME YOU WANT TO BE SHOWN SOMETHING ITS B/C YOU BELIEVE IT DOESNT EXIST, BUT EITHER WAY, WE'VE BOTH ASKED AND I THINK ITS FAIR, THAT WHEN ASKED, WE CAN EACH GRACIOUSLY DO THIS.
And next...
I want you both to know that I say the words "In my opinion" b/c I do not nor have I ever professed to know all things. I therefore say "my opinion" meaning my interpretation or what I believe to be true from Scripture and from wisdom granted. I, and I'm sure Steve, believe ourselves to have opinions grounded in Scripture and whatever wisdom God grants to us...but neither of us are prepared to claim more than that for ALL things. There are things that I'm sure of...a few of them I've shared with you...those things are not my interpretations or "opinions." But I do not believe, as you do, that I can fully understand God or his purposes at all times. So by saying its my opinion, I leave room to allow God to correct me, its a way of not allowing myself to become too proud.
After all, dark is not light to me. I do not know my own thoughts before I have them as God does...do you? You can say "you know" all you want Paul...but when you say things like you know that I haven't humbled myself before the Lord...to which I LOUDLY and RIGHTEOUSLY call you a liar...and God knows better sir...it doesnt make you right b/c you're not using the words "its my opinion"...and in cases such as this, maybe you should.
And I do not believe that I’m wearing out any sort of welcome with you Paul...b/c I believe it above you to ever stop a conversation whenever you haven’t had the last word. For instance, I have shown in both of these posts, to all that read, that you are wrong Paul...and you cannot live with that. You will still believe me to be swine but still cast your pearls before me b/c you can’t take that I’m making more sense than you...that we all are...at least that’s my interpretation of the situation so I speak it as such. May God change that interpretation if it is false.
Don't forget the question about John Calvin and Billy Graham above.
andy
Paul – thanks for responding in earnest to my post about God wanting your heart. I actually read this one, at least most of it, because I think you were really trying to make sense this time. And you almost did. Let me show you where we disagree.
Your application of the verses you quoted makes some misguided assumptions. I think it’s important to be careful when handling the word of God and not assume that it says what you’d like it to say because it’s about the topic you’re discussing. Make sense? Let me show you what I mean:
Let’s take an example from something outside of scripture. Let’s say you read something in the newspaper one day about a study that found that people who travel for work are four times as likely to be overweight as people who go to the same place for work every day. According to the logic you use, you would conclude that traveling makes people fat. That would be a gross assumption. In reality, there are several other factors that you would have neglected to consider. For instance, people who travel are more likely to eat at restaurants and fast food places where food is less healthy. Plus, they’re less likely to exercise when they’re on the road. In this scenario (which is totally made up, by the way. I have no idea if there is any correlation between travel and weight) it’s not travel which causes people to be overweight. It’s other behaviors that are often associated with travel. Certainly it’s possible that there are people who travel and eat healthy and exercise and are not overweight. Likewise, there are overweight people who do not travel. And, to further confuse the subject, there are people who eat healthy and exercise and are still overweight. The problem with saying that travel causes people to be overweight is that it mistakes correlation with causation. Just because the study said that there is a correlation (people who travel are often overweight) doesn’t imply causation (travel makes people fat).
Whew! Ok, so that was a long example. Now let’s see how you make that mistake with scripture. Let’s examine the verses you quoted.
In response to my statement that God wants your heart more than your behavior, you quoted the following verse:
"You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you shall know them" (Matthew 7:16-20 MKJV).
This verse does NOT say that our fruits CAUSE us to be true Christians. Instead, it says that our fruits are EVIDENCE of our being Christians. It’s not the fruit (travel) that makes us Christians (fat). But our fruit (fatness) is evidence that we are Christians (travel). Do you follow this? If not, please just say so.
Let’s try the next verse:
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:45 EMTV).
This is one of my favorite verses. And it really supports my point. It is the heart which directs the behavior here (“for out of the overflow of his heart, his mouth speaks”). You get it? Jesus is saying that our hearts come first. That our behaviors are evidence of what’s in our hearts. So we should see to it that we cultivate hearts that are fully his and then our behavior will reflect that. What Jesus says in this verse, is actually backwards from what you’re saying.
Let’s continue with another verse you quoted:
"He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21 EMTV).
Again, see here that the heart comes first and then the obedience. “He who loves me (first) will (then) obey me.” Our obedience is evidence of our love. This verse does not say “He who obeys me will then love me.” The heart comes first. Just as it was said of Abraham: he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Ok, so speaking of righteousness, let’s take a look at my assertion that you will never be righteous. You quoted this verse:
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5:20 EMTV).
When taken in context, it’s clear that what Jesus was telling his disciples here is that they will never be good enough to earn justification. For their righteousness to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was hyperbole. Much like Jesus saying that it’s harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Jesus wasn’t illiterate. He was really a pretty talented communicator. He understood hyperbole (maybe you should look it up) and metaphors and other literary devices and used them well to make his point. His point in this verse is the same as mine: try as you might, you’ll never be perfect. In fact, the law was never meant to make men perfect. As Paul said, “no one has ever been made righteous by the law.” The law is a mirror that is intended to show man his sin.
One final clarification, when I said you’ll never be righteous, I didn’t mean that you can never perform an act of righteousness. I don’t mean to say that you’re incapable of good or even of occasional obedience to scripture. I’m just saying, with Jesus and Paul and all of scripture, that Paul Cohen and Ryan Sanders are not capable of moral perfection. We are stained by sin and in daily need of the savior, the righteous one, to cover our stains. I hope you come to see that. I hope you consider giving God your heart and not just your mind. I hope you learn what this means, “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” I hope you surrender to God. I hope you take up my challenge to pray Ps. 139:23-24 soon. I pray for that, Paul.
-ryan
jolly well to be back, gentlemen. this is great! i have told several of my friends about this great debate.
first off, let me clear this up. i'm all about the crunchy! i get that all the time!
paul, i liked your argument to ryan about the sins of omission. that was good.
victor, you warned me about being rash. so i read everything and some of my questions were answered in all the reading. now that i have read the posts and visited pathoftruth and harvesthaven sites i have a few more questions.
paul and victor, i at first thought your claim to be sinless was ridiculous. but, if you are sinless then i want to know how you do it and how can i join you? i struggle with sin, but want to be free from that. specifically, what were some of the things that helped you free yourselves of sin?
paul, you claim that you are sinless, but was it a loss of self control when you called andy a snot-nosed brat? also, andy, i am curious if you are sick and actually had a runny nose that day because, paul, you are close to proving yourself to be who you say you are or close to exposing yourself as a fraud. either andy is a brat with a runny nose or you lost your control when you called him that. i can't understand that you would have used a derogatory term if you were perfect and unaffected by anger, frustration, or the imperfections of our created being.
now, are you to be who you say you are then i can't imagine anyone i'd rather be around. i've read your testimonies. i'm very intrigued by your claim, victor, that you speak directly to God. i've never met anyone who would claim this, but i'm not rejecting your claim. the prophets before spoke with Him. if it is okay for you to divulge, can you tell about times when you speak to Him? can others at Harvest Haven (or those you work with in Montana) hear His voice? how did you know it was God and not something else? was it scary?
both of your testimonies indicate you used to be sinners. how did you change? it seems that it was a process and not an immediate change? if that's the case, then why do you condemn some of the people on this blog who are telling you that they are sincerely walking with Christ and are trying not to sin? it seems to fly in the face of where you came from. bob, in the first blog, commented that people are trying to impact lives for Christ operate in a different manner than you do. you agree with his comment but then fail to address that any further. what would you say to that?
i'm also curious why don't you answer all the questions posed on the blog? there are some good questions that are responded to, but not answered. just because a response is given does not mean that an answer is provided. are you giving thought to ryan's invitation to read psalms? what about his question regarding consumption of fossil fuels that contribute to the conditions of the atmosphere? i think it was ryan, who also asked how you consider the apostles sinless? paul in romans 7 talks about struggling with sin and hating what he does.
i saw your harvesthaven page. i think it's very cool that you grow your own food and allow others to visit. some of what i read leads me to inquire if you think it is a sin to hold paid jobs? eat food that is not organic? go to public school? be a part of a church body? listen to a pastor?
if it is a sin to listen to a pastor then why should i listen to you? if you claim it is because you are sent from God as prophets (not pastors), then how can i be sure?
thanks,
pbj
sorry, i see that michelle and nancy are probably not gentlemen...so great to be back ladies and gentlemen.
-pbj
Ryan,
Excellent. Good PROOF of the gross mis-contextualization that Paul is guilty of. Beautiful example of Spirit led interpretation. Nice job.
Paul,
Please tell us your understanding of Christ as "mediator" between God and man, as is mentioned in 1 Timothy 2:5: "5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." (also see Hebrews 9:15)
A mediator interposes between parties in order to reconcile them. Obviously, Christ's death on the cross was a reconciling work between God and man for those who believe, but these passages demonstrate that Christ's role is ongoing as "mediator." If we are to no longer struggle with sin, what use is there for an ongoing mediator?
Paul speaks of justification and sanctification. Justification is the part of the "mediation" of Christ wherein He has reconciled us to God by His death on the cross. Sanctification is the process of "working out your salvation" (Philippians 2:12,13) and maturing in Christ. If sin is no longer an issue for the believer, why is there a need to work out our salvation?
So, what's your view of Christ and "mediator", and how do you view Justification and Sanctification?
Please provide proof.
ryan,
I think I have to side with Paultor (I decided to combine Paul and Victor's names. More about that to come.) I don't think you thought your analogy all the way through to completion.
First, there is no way that fruit makes you fat.
Second, there is no way that travel makes you fruit. I have never heard of anyone changing from human to fruit without the help of some serious penchant for bananas. I saw a guy turn into a Tomato once, but no matter how much you want to call it a fruit, we all know its a vegetable.
I think I have sufficiently taken care of that one Paultor. High five!
Now, as for the new moniker I have given you...
In many of your posts, you seem to hand off the computer to each other. But by your website information, it appears that Paul is in Helena, Montana and Victor is in Lethbridge, Alberta. Now I don't claim to be a cartographer, but that commute each morning can't be good. So... I have decided that you are one in the same. Until you can prove that you are not the same, I will know this is a certainty.
By the way, just saying you are different is not proof. You are going to have to show me physically. 'til then, I'm right and you, singular, are wrong. No takebacks.
Love you.
Paultor: I have one other suggestion that I forgot. (Actually, I have a lot of suggestions for you, but this is the one I want to type with my fingers right now.)
Try a different translation. I'm not being funny. Really try it. Try NIV or NASV. Try something a little more grammatically straightforward. I think it might help. I'm serious. Everyone has a little trouble with literary forms that they're not used to. Obviously, you don't go around every day speaking in "thee"s and "thou"s. So try a translation of the Bible that uses something closer to the English that you use every day. I think it might help you spot irony or hyperbole or metaphors when they arise in the text.
And just for the record, I'd like to repeat: this is NOT A FUNNY POST!
Baby arm.
Darn, and I was just about to suggest "Pictor"!
I have been keeping up with the readings for a good while here...and I just had a few thoughts to add to the discussion. But in keeping with the theme of Mr. Paul and Mr. Victor, I'd like to make this statement: "I know what I know because I know that it is known as truth by all who know." make sense? if it does, then DARN, i was trying to keep the theme going...
#1. What is the EMTV translation?
#2. Apparently I'm under the "vile influence" of someone...it's gonna take you awhile to figure that one out...unless of course, God's already revealed it you...
#3. Paul and Victor, Victor and Paul, how do you feel about coffee?
Andy,
You ask again for Victor's answer to this portion of one of your letters, and to the second question in particular:
"...until then however...2 things
"do you believe that you 'know all things?' ALL things...at your disposal...whenever you want. ALL things? In the spiritual and physical realm.
"secondly, do you refer to Matthew chapter 23 when you say that Jesus called his disciples a brood of vipors? Do you believe the disciples that Jesus was speaking to in that chapter to be believers?
"(by the way, i liked your sarcasm in stating that...until now you havent done very well in discerning sarcasm...as if you were above that literary tool...i enjoyed a bit from you)"
Here are the answers Victor gave you in his subsequent letter (I have labeled the portions that correspond to each question), as clear as I can possibly make them:
Answer to #1: "You criticize our claim to know all things, not realizing that it is not we who originated that claim at all. Why should we not believe the Word of God? You mock and call the apostle John a liar because John spoke those words to all that believe, no matter who they are. Mocking him, you mock the One Who loved him and gave Himself for him. Do you know what John meant by those words, or do you allow any value to them at all? Of course not.
"The fact that you mock such a truth only serves to confirm our words of you. Only devils, and not disciples, do what you do, hiding and playing games."
Answer to #2: "This, your letter, tells us you read the Lord's words to and of Nathanael this way:
"'Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is much guile.'
"Is that what your Jesus and your bible say in John? Apparently it is, and you do your utmost to live by it. But the Holy Scriptures we read declare the opposite of your spirit and conduct:
"'Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him and said of him, Behold an Israelite indeed in whom is no guile!' (John 1:47 MKJV)
"Here is, perhaps, a more suitably expressive version in this case:
"'When Jesus saw him coming He said, There's a real Israelite, not a false bone in his body' (John 1:47 MSG)."
You assumed that Victor was saying that Jesus called His disciples vipers, when he said no such thing whatsoever. Your conclusion to what Victor said is no different than your reading the words of Jesus in John 1:47 to say that Nathaniel was full of guile. In other words, you have called evil what the Lord called good. Jesus said of His disciples:
"Jesus said to him, He who is bathed has need only to have his feet washed and then he is clean all over: and you, My disciples, are clean, but not all of you [referring to Judas Iscariot]" (John 13:10 BBE).
And, as I have pointed out, you have called good what the Lord calls evil.
You defend the blasphemers on this blog:
"I know many of them, and to my interpretation they are men who pick up their cross and follow God daily."
You also encourage Bob in the vile nonsense he spews out. This is not good.
Regarding Peter, yes he was a sinner and a disciple. But he repented of his sins, and the Lord declared him clean. He was filled with the Holy Spirit, and was completely transformed from a denier of Christ to an affirmer, even going to his death as the Lord had said he would, full of faith and having the total victory of Christ, giving glory to God. So, that is what I can tell you about Peter.
We never said that we were not sinners (though we go and sin no more by the grace and power of the Lord Who lives in us). We never said that we accomplished our salvation ourselves. However, we have confessed that we are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, and if that were not possible, there is no point in bothering to read the Bible or seek after those things spoken of there, because it is all lies.
You write:
"You have no clue how much time that I spent on this current post or how much time anyone in here has spent on any of these postings. And time is variable from person to person...where it might take one person 10 minutes to rightfully and prayerfully consider something, it might take someone else 45. There is no law that sets the time limit that must be spent on each question before it is asked...you are piddling away still at pointless accusations."
You are right; the amount of time does not tell the whole story. However, the greater issue is if you do not know what you are talking about, it does not matter how much time you spend. Your answer is not valid simply because you have labored over it. If that were the case, many who study the Scriptures for hours a day would be the most qualified to speak, but that is not so. Look at the life of Paul, for example.
However, it is clear that many here, including yourself, have not red all that we have written. That is even by admission of several on this blog. It is also clear you have not been careful readers. We can not help it if you choose not to read what we have written. But to answer with certainty without first comprehending what is written is irresponsible, and, in some cases if not all, indicative of another agenda, contrary to a love of truth and reasonableness.
Regarding Calvin; I do not have anything specific to say about him at the moment, but Victor has written about Billy Graham - How the Lord Exposed Billy Graham.
If you red The True Marks of a Cult, you would find many of your questions answered automatically, if only you had the heart for it.
Andy, you are being quite arrogant and nasty towards me. While I have spoken hard things to you, I have not been nasty. You talk about the Lord loving you, but do not acknowledge how:
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (Revelation 3:19 KJV).
The problem is not that we are talking to you, but will be when we are not. Unless I hear something different coming from you, I have no more to say.
Paul
Andy, Victor here,
When Paul called for proof, he was asking for proof of substance, for substantiation from Scripture, and specifics. There had been none forthcoming from those of whom he asked it, namely Steve, Bob and Ryan. He was not asking for proof as you describe or perceive it, that is, proof of existence. Steve's discourse was a flagrant example of sheer opinion without any specifics or substantiation of any kind, particularly from Scripture, which we know as God's Authoritative Source of what is true or false, right or wrong.
We fully understand that nothing can be proven to the carnal mind. The carnal mind is not after proof of truth; neither can it prove truth. Perhaps, for your sake, Paul could have used different terms, though the ones he used were not wrong to use.
We tell you all specifically how you are wrong, and we give you proof from Scripture, even as Jesus gave proof from Scripture. Constantly, He would say, "It is written...." But, though you come in His Name, you give us nothing. You only condemn and criticize us and accuse us of the very things of which you are guilty yourselves. We hold a mirror to your faces and you say it is us you see.
You are right when you say that one can only know the truth and falsehood of anything by revelation from God. We have been on both sides. You people have yet to be on the Light side. Is that arrogant in your "opinion"? We can't help that. We know whereof we speak, for salvation is of the Jews, not those circumcised in the flesh (we have no confidence in the flesh), but those who have been circumcised in the heart. None of you has known that circumcision.
You say, "Its all about God and his love."
You have not known His love. Can we prove that? Not to you, though we have proven it in many ways, and we need no other proof than what you have given us with the fruit of your lips, which speak out of the abundance of your heart.
You write, "Join me in praying for God to search our hearts for these things."
We know Him, His will and have His mind. He speaks by us, and we by Him. Here is proof, for example, that such a claim is possible by Scriptural testimony, according to the will of God (many do not believe our claim can be of God):
"But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:12-16 MKJV).
We have offered this proof many times on this site already, yet the foolish and ignorant will not acknowledge it because they sit in darkness and bitterness – yes, bitterness. They will not answer; they shut their eyes, sticking their fingers in their ears, and mouth obscenities, spouting absurdities, scorning and scoffing because...they have no reply to the proof given them.
There is, therefore, no need for us to pray for our part, and unless you repent, there is no point to your praying; He will not hear sinners:
"But we know that God does not hear sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him" (John 9:31 MKJV).
You will read about Billy Graham and I will tell you about John Calvin, not that he is the issue; you are. John Calvin was not born again and, therefore, could speak very little, if anything, by the Spirit of God. He was a very intellectual man, educated, calculating and reasoning, but he did not know the Lord. I often marvel at how correct the carnal man may be in some doctrine (the Pharisees were correct in much doctrine), while not having entered the Kingdom.
How can I know this? I can know it because I am in the Kingdom of Heaven. I am seated on the Lord’s throne with Him, and am so thankful for it. Our reasons for speaking here is to reprove the works of darkness and that you will one day "come up here" as well.
You ask, "Also, I wish you to tell me what you believe the final resting place of a few people is. Billy Graham and John Calvin."
John Calvin will have experienced much needed correction and Billy Graham will also be taken to correction. One day we will all know the Lord, having all been corrected. He has determined to reconcile all things unto Himself. Read what is available in The Restitution of All Things.
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Ryan's explanation and example of confusing correlation with causation is clear. No problem there. However, is that what I am doing? Ryan says so, but he is wrong, and I can show why.
To begin with, he assumes what I am saying or trying to say. He puts words in my mouth that I did not say or intend to say. I gave applicable Scriptures. The question is: What is the Lord saying there? Is Ryan interpreting properly, in complete agreement with Him, as he thinks? No, he is not.
Regarding the Lord's words that "you shall know them by their fruits," Ryan reacts to an interpretation I did not give:
"This verse does NOT say that our fruits CAUSE us to be true Christians."
I did not say that, anywhere, and I do not agree with that interpretation. I agree with what Ryan says, which is that it is the other way around. Our fruits prove (or disprove) whether we are Christ's.
Following up on his wrong assumption, Ryan says another quote "really supports [his] point." How can it support his point, when he does not have one? He only assumes he knows what I think the Lord is saying. He assumes wrongly. Here is the quote:
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:45 EMTV).
Ryan explains, again mistaken that I disagree with his explanation:
"It is the heart which directs the behavior here ('for out of the overflow of his heart, his mouth speaks'). You get it? Jesus is saying that our hearts come first. That our behaviors are evidence of what's in our hearts."
We never said, and did not intend to imply, that we can make ourselves right with God by our behavior (works). There isn't even a hint of such a thought in anything we have written. What we have said is what the Lord and others in the Scriptures say, that if you believe, there will be the positive fruits of faith, manifest by your works (behavior). A supreme example of this, given by James, is Abraham's offering up of Isaac (verse 2:21).
We have also acknowledged that our belief is founded on His faith, which is His gift to us and which is responsible for producing our good fruits of confession and works. Jesus Christ is glorified in us.
So where is our disagreement? Here it is: Though Ryan says that good works come from the heart, he takes credit for the condition of his heart, not recognizing or confessing that his heart is totally corrupt and unsalvageable. He preaches that you can obtain a good heart by your works:
"So we should see to it that we cultivate hearts that are fully his and then our behavior will reflect that."
If you can cultivate your heart to make it God's, then you are making yourself right with Him by your behavior, are you not? That is not the gospel of Christ. It is the gospel of men's works, though falsely advertised as grace. Truly, he is the one guilty of that which he thinks to be my error.
An evil man (and all men are born into evil) cannot produce good fruit, no matter how hard he tries. Ryan contradicts himself because he does not distinguish between a good man and an evil one, as the Lord does. Ryan says that you, a sinner sold out to sin, can behave in a certain way to attain God's righteousness.
But the testimony of God, of the Lord Jesus Christ and His saints, boldly contradicts any suggestion that you have the power to do this:
"As it is written: There is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one" (Romans 3:10-12 MKJV).
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9 MKJV)
Contrary to what Ryan says, there is no such thing as a man who can lift himself by his own bootstraps. If any man is good, it is because he has found grace in God's sight. It is never the work of man to "cultivate" his heart to be as God's:
"But if it is of grace, then it is no longer of works: or grace would not be grace" (Romans 11:6 BBE).
The problem for Ryan, and for all of you struggling against the saying of the apostle John that those born of God do not sin, is that he has not received the grace of God and the Nature of Christ within, which comes with the new birth, the baptism of His Spirit. You have not had your hearts circumcised, that you might become sons of Good. You are trying to reform the old man, the carnal son of the first Adam, who is unreformable. And you certainly manifest his fruits, try as you might to conceal the problem. That is why Jesus Christ said you must come to the cross and die (Matthew 10:38-39 and 16:24). You cannot work out your salvation without His Presence and Life, received upon your death. You are as the Jews who did not believe on Him, to whom Jesus said these words:
"Then Jesus said to them again, I go, and you will seek Me. And you will die in your sin. Where I go, you are not able to come" (John 8:21 LITV).
You seek Him but do not find Him. You cannot conceive of being delivered from your sins and the sin nature you are now in, because trusting in your false hearts and in the works of your own hands to cultivate them to be good, which will never happen, and you will, therefore, never be delivered from your sin nature that continually sins.
But God, through the prophets of Israel, promised a new heart for His people, those who believe on Him in the self-abandoning commandment of Christ, who come to Him and take up their crosses, and it is this new heart which enables us to walk according to His Law, and to establish it as Paul the apostle says we do through faith (Romans 3:31):
"And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26-27 MKJV).
This is the new covenant in the Lord Jesus Christ, accomplishing what the Law was unable to do:
"The new covenant that I will make with the people of Israel will be this: I will put My law within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people" (Jeremiah 31:33 GNB).
Without the new heart, there is no way anyone can do anything pleasing or acceptable to God. You people are working in vain, because you do not have new hearts and reject the idea as absurd, even evil. You say you can see (do well), so your sin remains.
Do you not see that you are calling God and His Christ a liar, Who promised a new nature that keeps the Law? What is sin but the breaking of the Law? If God promises you will have the power to keep it, why do you blaspheme Him and call those who have experienced His faithfulness liars and fools?
You are not in Christ, the sinless One. You talk about Him, but you do not know Him. We do. That is why you hate us. Think about it. You hate us because we profess Jesus Christ and His righteousness, and tell you the truth about yourselves and your unrighteousness. It is Him you really hate, and us by extension because we are with Him, walking in the Light.
Your works are displeasing to God, and you hate Him for rejecting them, just like your father Cain, who murdered his brother.
Ryan continues with another verse from my posting:
"He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21 EMTV).
I originally quoted that Scripture to answer Ryan's statement, which is as follows:
"He wants you to learn how to receive his LOVE, not just his law."
Jesus said that those who keep His commandments love God and will receive His love in return. If you obey Him, you can be sure you will receive His love. Who can hinder Him in what He says He will do? If you keep His commandments, you can also be sure you will see Him.
But that is not what any of you are confessing that you want, by your words and actions. You are saying, "We don't keep His commandments because we are sinners but He loves us anyway."
Having been given the grace to come out the world and to obey God, we have not only received Christ's love, but we are His love made manifest to the world. Those that mock us mock Christ.
Continuing with Ryan's argument:
"Ok, so speaking of righteousness, let’s take a look at my assertion that you will never be righteous. You quoted this verse:
"'For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven' (Matthew 5:20 EMTV).
"When taken in context, it's clear that what Jesus was telling his disciples here is that they will never be good enough to earn justification. For their righteousness to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was hyperbole.... His point in this verse is the same as mine: try as you might, you'll never be perfect."
That is pure and lethal error, "Worm Tongue" holding his victim captive. Why bother trying something you can't attain? Why bother "cultivating your heart" then (not that we agree you should, but we confront you on your contradiction)? But Jesus was not saying that you can never be perfect, as evidenced by what He also says further on:
"Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48 MKJV).
Neither was the Lord using hyperbole. Not in the least. After He said that one's righteousness had to exceed that of the Pharisees to enter the Kingdom of Heaven (which is to be perfect as is the Father in Heaven), He proceeded to give several specific examples of how this was so. Go to Matthew and read the rest of the verses, from 20-48, and you will see this for yourselves, unless you insist on holding your hands over your eyes (metaphorically speaking).
Did not the Lord Jesus Christ say He came that we might have life? Why would He say it is impossible for men to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, where true life is found, if He came expressly for that purpose and plainly said so? Ryan's suggestion of the Lord mocking His own proposition with hyperbole is diabolical. It is devilish because he poses as an apologist for Christ while subtly undermining the express purpose of His coming and suffering on our behalf.
Are we preaching the Law, as Ryan suggests, to effect one's salvation? Only if Jesus was doing so in the verses I have just directed you to read in Matthew 5, wherein He explains how much greater are the requirements of the Law than the religious allowed. The Lord lifted up the Law because religious men thought themselves in good standing with God according to it, but they were not. They had a superficial standard, by which they impressed themselves and others as if they had attained a godly righteousness (they had "cultivated" their hearts to be pleasing to God); but they were yet inwardly corrupt and unreformed. Jesus said to them:
"How terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look fine on the outside but are full of bones and decaying corpses on the inside" (Matthew 23:27 GNB).
We have not been made righteous by the keeping of the Law, but we keep it because we have the Righteous Lawgiver within. Those who do not have Him within are described by the apostle John:
"He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8 EMTV).
The Son of God has appeared to us, and has destroyed the works of the devil; glory to God!
I am surprised no one has brought up this next Scripture. It appears to contradict what we are saying and other Scriptures we have quoted. We know the Scriptures are in perfect harmony, so I will explain it now, verse by verse:
1 John 1:8-10 EMTV
8: If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If you come to God and deny you have sin (not so much with your lips as with your conduct and life), you are deceiving yourself, and the truth is not in you. If the truth is in you, planted there by the Word of God, Jesus Christ, then the following will happen when you come to Christ:
9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Coming into the Light, you will see your sins and confess them. Then God will not only forgive your sins, but will also cleanse you from all of your unrighteousness.
Will you return to that from which you have escaped? Not if you are His sheep:
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: 'The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire'" (2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV).
10: If we claim that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
If we have escaped the corruptions of the world, then we certainly cannot claim that we have not sinned, having been part of that corruption. We know where we came from, and we know what the Lord has done for us, and we declare it unequivocally. That is what you will see on our website, beginning with Our Testimonies.
Some of you presume we speak of the perfection or sinlessness of the flesh, because all you have known is the flesh, and you know, whether you admit it or not, just how corrupt that is. But we speak of the inner man in Christ, the one you have not experienced, which cannot be experienced by those who have not known the Lord.
Paul said that in his flesh dwelt no good thing. Ryan says that in your flesh dwells some good thing. He is saying that you are capable of good, or the occasional act of righteousness or obedience. You are not. You are exactly as Paul described you in Romans 3. It is certainly true that Paul Cohen and Ryan Sanders are not capable of moral perfection. But Paul Cohen has been made aware by Christ that with God all things are possible. By the grace of God, I do not deny what He has done for me. Ryan calls God a liar, so that he can continue to serve himself in his vanity, pride and sin.
No, I will not be praying Ryan's equivalent of the rosary. Such is more dead works. How can I, having the blood of Jesus Christ as my life, walk contrary to Him in order to keep the commandments of men?
"In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask Him" (Matthew 6:7-8 HNV).
If what we say is so, are we not showing you the mercy of God, and is He not most patient with sinners who contradict themselves?
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
We use many translations, though not all. See How We View, Interpret, and Use the Scriptures and Versions. Where or how often do you find "thee's" and "thou's" in our writings? We ask, time and time again, that you prove your assertions. We understand that you may be speaking figuratively, but still you provide nothing specific. You merely toss out opinion and give advice, which we prove to you to be ill-advised, primarily because you don't have it in you to receive these things. You prove that by not even reading what we give you. If you did, you would not say most, if any, of what you say to us, unless you are entirely moronic.
You provide no substance to your assertions or accusations, yet you call yourself a Christian. True Christians have and willingly provide substance. Those who are not true Christians live as nonsubstance, unable to provide, being imitation in all they say, think, and do. Contrary to popular opinion of those at this blog, we are not condemning you. We are stating things as they are, as we are given to state them. Those that don't believe are already condemned. Because they do not believe, they condemn those who speak the truth that judges them, as though those speaking are at fault. That is the expected reaction of those without substance. The Record is that they crucified the Truth, while doing so in His Name.
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Dear Paultor,
I Am God, you are not.
Love,
God
paultor, i think i gotta agree with God on this one.
Steve:
1) Your reply to Ryan:
"A man who flatters his neighbor spreads a net for his feet" (Proverbs 29:5 MKJV).
Do you know who the strange woman that flatters with her words, in Proverbs 2 and 7, is?
I have replied to Ryan, and you will see (or won't see) how his alleged proof goes poof.
2) Your reply to me:
You ask about Christ's ongoing role as mediator between man and God. How, you ask, can He continue to mediate for us if we are already delivered from sin?
If there is a dispute in this world and mediation is begun to settle it, the mediation is considered successful only if the parties are reconciled to the satisfaction of both. If men can have successful mediations, would not the omnipotent God, the Lord Jesus Christ, be successful in His work? It goes without saying that He will accomplish what He says He will, at least for those of us who know Him.
Christ's mediation has been successful in us, and He has reconciled us to God. But this has not happened yet for you. All you have is pretense of faith in Christ, which has become sin to you.
Christ's role as Mediator has not abated; it has expanded to include us who are reconciled to God and have been given to mediate in Him, just as Paul the apostle did:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, all things have become new. And all things are of God, Who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and Who gave to us the ministry of this reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their transgressions to them, and committing to us the word of this reconciliation. Now then, we serve as ambassadors for Christ, as though God were appealing through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:17-20 EMTV).
You do not know or see that you reject not man's word (Victor and Paul), but God's Word, Jesus Christ, Who comes in us.
There are also many false conclusions drawn from what we say. For example, you say, "If sin is no longer an issue for the believer, why is there a need to work out our salvation?"
Did we say sin is no longer an issue for the believer? You will have to show us where. Do we not believe there is a need to work out our own salvation?
We have experienced the working out of our salvation, particularly as outlined in Victor's testimony. We confess that our salvation was worked out by the faith of the Son of God, so that it is now no longer us, but Christ Who lives in us.
We also assert that the religious works you are engaged in are not the working out of Christ's salvation. They are the opposite; the works of men, which the Psalmist calls the paths of the destroyer (Psalm 17:4).
You ask me to provide proof. I have. Why is it that you cannot provide any? All you can do is mock what I say, having no substance of your own. You have not supplied anything to back up your accusations and contentions. You only come to us as did the Lord's tempters, who could not answer Him; so they fished for something by which they could condemn Him, because His Word found no place in them, though they falsely claimed to love God.
You are lost in your own maze, "Pastor" Hayes, and we show you The Way.
If you want to know more about what we teach, there is plenty you can read on our website. There is even a search engine, if titles and summaries are not sufficient for what you wish to find.
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Victor, I really liked your response. This is not a joke, nor am I laughing. I read it and felt like you were really trying to explain something to me. So thx for being straightforward but yet polite...it got so much farther with me than name calling. I do not agree with ALL of what you said (of course:)
I understand your point about "proof" and I do agree with it. The Word of God is what we should stand on and "prove" our beliefs by. And I do agree with the point that Jesus often used Scripture. I thought that the "proof" you were looking for from me was a scriptural one (I understand now what you were saying and I apologize for any assumption there)...I am admittedly, often wrong. But my point can still be heard...
I can give you Scriptures that I believe are taken out of context by you guys and I can give you Scripture that I believe opposes what you speak...but I know, that if it stands in opposition to your interpretations that you will not accept it as such. You will tell me that my interpretation is wrong as you MUST b/c you claim to know the correct interpretation of all things at all times. (Please don't take my tone here as being snotty or even sarcastic...this is just the conclusion that must be reached when you consider the facts) So, my point was that, even if I give you Scripture, or even if I give you my side of how I think words have been taken out of context...then my point will not and can not be conceded by you or Paul. I understand this now. Its ok. Basically what I was saying was that there is no proof, even if there is some in my eyes...does that make sense?? Its a bit confusing.
So all I was saying is that, for now, I am taking it to the Lord.
Paul, you did ALOT better as well...though Victor did better better. But I feel like I understood alot of what you were trying to say...and I also feel like more got through since you weren't talking down at me it seemed.
I'd also like to thank you for pointing out Victor's answer to my previous question...I understand it better anyway, maybe not wholly, but better...so thx.
I'm sorry if I was harsh...I feel like I was only arrogant and nasty about your statements denying my confessions and my time with the Lord. And also your statements that I had never considered that I could hear anything from you. That did anger me a bit...b/c I had spent time in prayer with the Lord concerning my own life and also of what you both had been speaking...so I may have gotten a bit nasty there...but I felt it justified given the circumstance. Sorry if some of that spilled over throughout the post. But I didn't call you a snot nosed brat...so I showed at least some reservation I think:)
Let me say Paul, that I do need to pray for correct interpretation and for wisdom and for God to search my heart...the fact that you know all these things without having to pray about them...or that you can know for sure all things...i cannot relate with...nor have I ever interpreted Scripture to tell me that I would be in a such a place on this earth. Let me say, as somebody else had previously stated in all this "discussion," that if you are both sinless and you both know all things...then I want you to be my new best friends. And I DONT know all things...and my interpretations HAVE been off before...so I must take you to the Lord. However, let me say that years of prayer and study and teaching have led me to believe that you are not correct in many of your statements nor how you use much of Scripture. You already know this...and I understand how you feel about it too.
I'm ok with you having no more to say to me anyway...though there may be some people in here in still have questions.
If I have any more honest questions I'll ask...and I'll try to keep the joke making to a minimum...though I like to laugh.
gotta go,
my girl looks mad,
andy
Andy, your girl does not look mad. Show me proof. Consider this, ONLY if Paultor says she looks mad does she really look mad. Once you have consulted Paultor regarding your girl's looks, then please speak. Until then, your girl looks like nothing. In fact, there is no girl. Furthermore, there is no you. It has been proven so. Thank you for not existing until Paultor speaks you into existence. Once spoken into existence then speak as allowed by Paultor and nothing more. Of course, since you don't exist I don't have to tell you this. Paultor will explain when he speaks you into existence. Once explained you can only understand to the degree which Paultor reveals. Once a revelation of understanding exists and/or arrives (depending on whether Paultor creates or sends), then you may, by the power of Paultor, attempt to see said girl. If then she looks mad, you may be correct. Once correct you will still be wrong. (PAULTOR 3:16 KRAZEEKJV)
Make sense?
Hi PBJ,
I will answer those of your questions not answered. While you have found some answers in our correspondence at this blog, others you have overlooked. There are yet others you will find at our site.
You ask:
"paul and victor, i at first thought your claim to be sinless was ridiculous. but, if you are sinless then i want to know how you do it and how can i join you? i struggle with sin, but want to be free from that. specifically, what were some of the things that helped you free yourselves of sin?"
Whatever we have claimed is not so much what we have claimed as what the Lord has claimed for, and declared of, us, as we have already said. Read again the Scriptures we have given, for which we are blamed. It is God's Word and not words we have originated. We simply believe the Scriptures because His Word dwells in us, which Word He is (we have the Reality).
If His Word dwells in us, how can we not have His mind, as Paul says to the Corinthians, which we have quoted? Paul made it clear that even the Corinthians, who were still carnal, had His mind, including all believers in the word "we."
Now if we have His mind, then there is a place or state within that is without sin. The Word and sin cannot dwell together. Indeed, the Word has vanquished sin altogether. One can enter the Holy of Holies boldly by His blood, but not with sin. Nothing unclean or defiled can enter the Kingdom. We are in the Kingdom, and so we testify that there is the Reality of what we speak.
Was John a foolish man or a liar? He said:
"But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7 MKJV).
This is not a theoretical position or merely what "theologians" deem to be a "done deal as far as God is concerned." Rather, He has purposed and made it an actuality for those whom He has chosen, those to whom He has, by grace, granted genuine, substantial faith. It is a matter of reality and not mere judgment, perception or religion. God intended us to be clean, and not just be pronounced clean while we continue to wear filthy rags of sin. When Jesus pronounced a leper clean, the leprosy was gone. It did not remain while the leper was merely pronounced clean.
The True Gospel delivers; the false gospel only declares you are delivered (when you are not – leading you to believe that declaration is all there is to it). The True Gospel washes clean; the false gospel leaves one dirty. The True Gospel glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ; the false glorifies the flesh, sin and the serpent. That is the crucial difference between our Gospel and the gospel believed and preached by all we have encountered on this blog – Ryan, Kibbles, Nancy, Bob, Andy and Steve. We hear the lepers crying, "We are not clean, but God has made Jesus a leper so we are clean in His stead while He has been made dirty in ours." That is, in essence, what all are saying here. It is a mixture of truth and falsehood, which keeps one in death and hell. What a deception this gospel is, bringing horrible torment! That is what Satan is all about:
"For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 MKJV).
And their fruits tell – look at Bob, for example, as well as Ryan and the rest of you. While we dutifully and patiently read what you say and address it, as we are given, some of you make no apology for ignoring what we say, despising it as so much dung, accusing us falsely of things we have not said. You revile us, scoff, scorn, ridicule and make light of the holy things of God, as though they are vain, although, in truth, it is your works that are vain. God says:
"When you come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and Sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly! Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them" (Isaiah 1:12-14 MKJV).
"Oh," you reply, "but we believe in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins (vain sacrifices)! And we meet to worship Him, don't we?"
But Paul and I, along with others, say to you, we are no longer lepers. We can now present our sacrifices, which are acceptable to Him. We are clean, not by the Law, not by our own virtue, but because Jesus has healed us! We are clean, praise God! We have the reality, even as promised and boldly declared in Scripture by those who have experienced the Reality.
Now you may argue that John goes on to say, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us" (1 John 1:8-10 MKJV).
You will see that Paul has replied in his recent post to Ryan concerning these words of John.
John has also said, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth" (1 John 1:6 MKJV). Is not sinning breaking God's Law? Is not breaking God's Law walking in darkness? Why argue with that? Why assume Christians are permitted, or worse yet, doomed to continue in sin? Will you find support for such an attitude in God's Word? Hardly! Paul says:
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! We died to sin--How should we live any longer in it?" (Romans 6:1-2 EMTV)
So how can any here justify sin? You can't, yet several do. That is because they have never experienced His true, real grace. Not experiencing the True, they deny its existence or availability through Christ. They have purchased plastic flowers. Of the Truth we speak, they ask, incredulously, "You mean flowers have a fragrance, can grow, and reproduce themselves? No way!" They then go about making more artificial flowers in their factories (Bible schools, seminaries, churches and proselytization), preaching and extolling an impotent sop of a "Jesus" and a powerless gospel. Read Diabolical Doctrine 8) "We cannot help but sin; it is impossible not to sin."
So how do you deal with sin, you ask?
"Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on Him Whom He has sent" (John 6:28-29 MKJV).
Have you tried to lay a trap for me, PBJ?
"But Jesus looked on them and said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26 MKJV).
Read Who Then Can Be Saved?!
"Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame'" (Romans 10:9-11 MKJV).
Those words are not a mere formula, once practiced then discarded like a disposable razor. Do you have problems with sin? Those words are there as a way of life, an attitude, an ongoing, perfectly effective tool.
There is a hymn with these words that are always true:
"Trust and obey, trust and obey, for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."
Read Obedience, So, You Want to Walk with Jesus?, Commitment, and The Sons of Correction.
Many search for a dramatic experience of some sort to lift them to a euphoric, spiritual victory. It does not work that way. It is step by step, starting with baby steps of obedience. Those steps lead to major events, of which there are three. Read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and The Three Degrees. My testimony also bears witness of these.
If you are bound by sin, it is because you are disobedient. You are the subject of that to which you yield yourself, and only that:
Romans 6:13-23 MKJV
(13) Do not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but yield yourselves to God, as one alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.
(15) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!
(16) Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.
(17) But thanks be to our God that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
(18) Then being made free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness.
(19) I speak in the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
(20) For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
(21) What fruit did you have then in those things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
(22) But now, being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Are you the Lord's subject? Then you are free of sin. Are you sin's subject? Then you are not made free by the Son of Man, no matter how much you think or claim otherwise. Truth makes you free.
We speak the truth. You have chanced on a goldmine, by the will of God, but you may treat it as a cesspool, as many here already have. Read Holy Waters, Repentance, The Bane of Bitterness, and Forgiveness.
This is a long reply indeed, but I must go on. Continue or complain.
With devilish spirit, you ask, "paul, you claim that you are sinless, but was it a loss of self control when you called andy a snot-nosed brat?" and, "i can't understand that you would have used a derogatory term if you were perfect and unaffected by anger, frustration, or the imperfections of our created being."
Was it a "loss of self control" when Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers? Read Does God Speak Only Gentle Words? and The False Religious Love that Hates (Rejects) God.
While the wicked use "derogatory terms" for their own sakes, the godly use them for truth's sake. Andy had it coming.
You say, "now, are you to be who you say you are then i can't imagine anyone i'd rather be around."
That is simply not true. You say one thing but your words and spirit say quite another. You do not love the Lord, PBJ. We speak so that you, Andy, Bob, Ryan, and all will love the Lord, worshipping Him in spirit and in truth.
You write, "i've read your testimonies. i'm very intrigued by your claim, victor, that you speak directly to God. i've never met anyone who would claim this, but i'm not rejecting your claim. the prophets before spoke with Him. if it is okay for you to divulge, can you tell about times when you speak to Him? can others at Harvest Haven (or those you work with in Montana) hear His voice? how did you know it was God and not something else? was it scary?"
My speaking directly to God is nothing. Perhaps billions have done that. I suppose that even you have. What is important is that God speaks to me.
Now the Bible is no ordinary book. It is a testimony, documenting and replete with testimonies of God speaking to prophets, apostles, saints and ordinary people. It can rightly be said that the Bible is all about God speaking to man.
Do you not read the Bible? You say you have never met anyone to whom God has spoken. Then you have never met a true Christian. Surprised? God speaks to all His sons and daughters:
"The doorkeeper opens to Him, and the sheep hear His voice, and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. And when He puts forth His own sheep, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him. For they know His voice. And they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers" (John 10:3-5 MKJV).
The unbelieving argue that God speaks only through the Bible. Read Diabolical Doctrine 23) "There is no literal, personal voice of God speaking today as in Biblical times."
You write: "both of your testimonies indicate you used to be sinners. how did you change? it seems that it was a process and not an immediate change? if that's the case, then why do you condemn some of the people on this blog who are telling you that they are sincerely walking with Christ and are trying not to sin? it seems to fly in the face of where you came from."
I have now answered the first questions concerning our change. Regarding the latter question, we condemn nobody. What we do condemn is presumption and falsehood. Did Jesus condemn the false religious? If He did, then so do we, and make no apology. Go to the links Does God Speak Only Gentle Words? and The False Religious Love that Hates (Rejects) God. Your understanding and perception of condemnation are at fault.
Nevertheless, we do not find anyone here trying not to sin. We see people who are fighting our directing them not to sin. We see people fighting the Lord and His messengers – how is that "walking with Christ" and "trying not to sin"? We hear people making claims. You are right when you say they are "telling us" they are doing these things, or are you even right there? Is that what they are really telling us? If so, what they say and what they do are two different things altogether, even as Jesus said of the Pharisees, "Do as they say but not as they do."
You write, "bob, in the first blog, commented that people are trying to impact lives for Christ operate in a different manner than you do. you agree with his comment but then fail to address that any further. what would you say to that?"
We most certainly agree with Bob. God forbid that we ought to conduct ourselves as those to whom he points:
"For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 MKJV).
Besides, how do you like all of Bob's entries here? Is he a real "impacter" for Christ to you? Do you think we ought to be of that company, PBJ?
You write: "i'm also curious why don't you answer all the questions posed on the blog? there are some good questions that are responded to, but not answered."
First, there is no question as to whether we have been able to answer, as many ought to know (not that they do). Second, while answers are there in many cases, you have not discerned them.
You then say, "just because a response is given does not mean that an answer is provided."
And we reply that just because a question is asked does not mean it deserves an answer, or even a response. We respond as given from above, able to do nothing without the Father. Are we greater than Jesus Christ? Even He could do nothing without the Father.
"Therefore His brothers said to Him, Move away from here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see the works that You do. For no one does anything in secret, while he himself seeks to be in public. If You do these things, reveal Yourself to the world. For His brothers did not believe in Him. Then Jesus said to them, My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its works are evil" (John 7:3-7 MKJV).
But you don't know these things, PBJ, so you ask, and that's okay. We are answering you.
You ask, "are you giving thought to ryan's invitation to read psalms?"
See Paul's answer to that. It is a heathen suggestion (commonly practiced) not according to Victor and Paul, as accused, but according to the One Victor and Paul quote and represent in spirit and in truth.
You write, "what about his question regarding consumption of fossil fuels that contribute to the conditions of the atmosphere?"
There are those who justify sin, calling it something other than sin, and there are those who call sin what is not sin. Asking us if we drive cars, for example, is like asking if Jesus paid taxes and encouraged others to do so when the Romans would use the proceeds to build their pagan temples and deify caesars. Which is worse, some contaminants in the physical air or idolatrous contaminants in the spiritual air? Neither paying taxes nor driving a car is necessarily sin. However, if God were to speak to me and say, "From now on you walk," and I disobey, then it is sin. Sin is so often in the motive and pertains to the will of God, and not to the act itself. That is where all of you err, not knowing good from evil.
Did Abraham sin, intending to sacrifice his son? Was that "scary" hearing God's voice? How would you have responded hearing that? "Get behind me, Satan," is a possible, if not likely reaction. Was he not asked to kill another human being? Did not the Scripture earlier say, "Whosoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed"? Did not Abraham know that? Yes, he did. I know that because I know Abraham. I know Abraham because we are one in the Lord.
Did Moses sin when he commanded the slaying of 3,000 people, even while he had received the commandments of God, written in stone by Him personally, one of which said, "You shall not kill"? Did God charge him with sin?
Was Jehu charged with sin when he lied to the Baal worshippers, deceiving, then slaying them all?
Shall we be charged with sin when we slay you all with the Sword of the Spirit?
While we are accused of believing and teaching righteousness by the Law, we are innocent of all charges. Is it not those who promote heathen customs and laws that are guilty of self-righteousness? It certainly is not the Lord's righteousness. Praying a Scripture verse over and over is not the Law of God. On the contrary, it is against His Law; He said, "Don't." What other righteousness, then, is it? What other is left of the two?
You write, "i think it was ryan, who also asked how you consider the apostles sinless? paul in romans 7 talks about struggling with sin and hating what he does."
See Paul's reply.
You write, "some of what i read leads me to inquire if you think it is a sin to hold paid jobs? eat food that is not organic? go to public school? be a part of a church body? listen to a pastor?"
As already said, it is not the act but the motive and the will of God that is the issue in any matter. Having said that, you may agree with me or you may not; if not, are you not aware that eating or producing conventional foods is killing people? Some things are not sin until one knows of the issues at stake. Are you ready to take on new sins, PBJ? Read (if you have not already) Christian Physical Diet. And don't think that God will condone willful ignorance; He won't. He didn't with us and He won't with anyone. Better you should read; better yet, read and do.
Are you not aware that humanistic teachings and teachings of evolution predominant in public school systems are directing young, malleable minds? If the systems are rather benign in your view, explain why no more Bible reading, why no more public prayer to the Lord, why the promotion of homosexual rights, freedom of idolatry and false religion, and exonerating perverse lifestyles that God condemns? Why the poisonous elements in many respects like worldly sex education, including the promotion of condoms, abortion, and condoning masturbation? Why the tacit and even blatant acceptance and approval of sexually suggestive clothing styles, of eastern religious philosophies, the proliferation of crime and tolerance of harmful diets, vaccinations and rebellious attitudes? The list goes on.
How is it "Christian" parents are prepared to subject their young children to heathen influence for the greater part of their days? Do parents not know what is happening to them? Do they not care? While it can be argued that they cannot afford the time or money to educate their children at home, they fail to realize their unbelief.
If people will stand for the truth and believe the Lord, He will make a way where there is no way and provide all needs, physical, mental, or spiritual. "No good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly." It is that simple. But they do not believe, so they see no alternative but to sacrifice their children for the dollar, the god they trust. Because they cannot discern the harm, and the harm may not even show itself for some time, they think it not a problem.
You write, "if it is a sin to listen to a pastor then why should i listen to you? if you claim it is because you are sent from God as prophets (not pastors), then how can i be sure?"
You may not consider it sin to listen to a pastor, but if your "pastor" is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a false pastor, your soul is on the line, is it not? Death comes by believing lies, even as Eve believed the serpent. Is that not sin? On the other hand, we certainly advocate submitting to true shepherds. Read Here Is the Way It Is, The True Marks of a Cult, The Lovely Essence of Satan, Counterfeit Christianity, The High Places, and The Case for Coming Out.
We deplore the thought of your following us because you think, or guess, or because it is your opinion, that we are of God. You must know from God whether we are sent by Him or not. This is no matter of opinion.
If you don't know, and we are of God, you lose.
If you know and don't follow, you doubly lose.
If you don't know and we are not of God, you still lose, because your darkness is the issue; you will fall if you have not already fallen.
But greatly blessed are you if God gives you to know that we are His true servants, which we are, and causes you to will and to do of His good pleasure.
God does indeed love you all, so He sends us to speak for Him,
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
PBJ, Victor has answered your posting, but you posed one question to me for which I also have a response. You write:
"paul, you claim that you are sinless, but was it a loss of self control when you called andy a snot-nosed brat? also, andy, i am curious if you are sick and actually had a runny nose that day because, paul, you are close to proving yourself to be who you say you are or close to exposing yourself as a fraud. either andy is a brat with a runny nose or you lost your control when you called him that. i can't understand that you would have used a derogatory term if you were perfect and unaffected by anger, frustration, or the imperfections of our created being."
It was not a loss of self-control that caused me to say that; neither did I sin as you imply. I used very appropriate terms to describe Andy's behavior. According to the Wordweb dictionary, "snot-nosed" means "overly conceited or arrogant." "Brat" means "a very troublesome child."
Andy, up to that point, had been mocking, deceitful, moody, and troublesome in an impetuous and childish manner, exhibiting self-importance and arrogance in his questionings and answers to us. He has somewhat backed off this stance in his last posting, showing some willingness to at least admit to some fault (which is more than can be said for anyone else here), but he still has a ways to go. The Lord said this to religious who rejected Him:
"For I say to you, You will not see Me from this time till you say, A blessing on him who comes in the Name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39 BBE).
Andy will not see the Lord Jesus Christ, and neither will you, PBJ, until you bless those who come in His Name. Is that not what happened to the Jews (those who had the ordinances of God and His Scriptures) after Jesus was resurrected and ascended into Heaven? He returned by His Spirit to indwell His disciples, and, suddenly, they were dealing with Christ all over again. The apostles report what was happening:
"For in fact they did meet--Herod and Pontius Pilate with nations and peoples, even Israel itself!--met in this very city to plot against Your holy Son Jesus, the One You made Messiah, to carry out the plans You long ago set in motion. And now they're at it again! Take care of their threats and give Your servants fearless confidence in preaching Your Message, as You stretch out Your hand to us in healings and miracles and wonders done in the Name of Your holy Servant Jesus" (Acts 4:27-30 MSG).
It was the Lord Jesus Christ that the men of Israel resisted and persecuted. He said to one of the chief persecutors of His saints:
"Saul, Saul, why are you attacking Me so cruelly?" (Acts 9:4 BBE)
That is what you people are doing here. It is no different, except, now, the Lord has come to put away the evil, rather than the evil putting away the good.
So if I was angry with Andy on account of his behavior and how he hypocritically treated the Lord as a lover while mocking Him, is that sin? Is it wrong to be angered by wickedness? That would make God quite a sinner, wouldn't it? It is said of Him:
"God judges the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalms 7:11 MKJV).
And:
"Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him" (Psalms 2:12 HNV).
Some have complained that we are literalists. Yet when I use the idiomatic expression "snot-nosed brat," you apply it to the situation in a literal fashion in order to condemn us. If I did not lose my temper, you say, then I must have been exercising omniscience to discern that Andy had a runny nose. As I have just pointed out, I did not speak inadvisedly, so your facetious conclusion is not valid or clean in the sight of God. What is valid are the Lord's words describing how you and your companions use conflicting standards to condemn Him:
"And the Lord said, To what then shall I compare the men of this generation? And to what are they like? They are like children sitting in a market and calling to one another, and saying, We have played the flute to you, and you have not danced; we have mourned to you, and you did not weep. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, He has a demon. The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, Behold a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners! But wisdom has been justified by all her children" (Luke 7:31-35 MKJV).
Would you speak as you have to us to the Lord Jesus, asking if those whom He called vipers had lost their limbs and were actually crawling on their bellies? How about those whom He called whitewashed tombs? Would you have mocked Him because He "lost His temper" in what He said there, because those whom He called tombs were not, obviously, stone vaults?
Yes, you would have, and do. That is why we are deadly serious with you people and tell you all that you must repent or you will perish like Kyle Lake and all those who take His Name in vain.
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Paul,
I actually fully agree with you. I know it's hard to believe, but when you say that man is incapable of good, and that, in the flesh, we are completely depraved, I fully and wholeheartedly say "Amen!"
Ephesians 2 is clear that we were "dead in our sins and trespasses", and apart from the work of the Son, no man can choose to go from death to life. It is the complete work of Christ. No disagreement there.
I still disagree, though with the idea of "sinless perfection" (by the way, if any of you were wondering, this is the official term for the strain of belief expressed by Paultor). Positionally, we are sinners no longer, but practically, the flesh still wages war against the spirit. Paul couldn't be more clear about this. When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:18-25).
Now, you can do some interpretive gymnastics with this passage if you'd like, but every verb in this passage, in the origianl language, is present tense. Paul is NOT talking about some time in the past where this struggle occured. He is speaking of a present inward war between the flesh and the spirit. For the Christian, this war is a present, practical reality. It does not affect our position as saints before the Lord, but it does affect our present, practical state.
Does it mean that we go on sinning? As Paul says, "may it never be!" It means that we deliver ourselves over to the Lord daily to be continually sanctified and made more and more into the image of Christ. Sanctification, again, is not our work, but a work of Christ within us. Our position "in Him" is constantly being "perfected", or "matured". If this were not the case, why would scripture speak so much about "being made righteous", or "overcoming sin". Even James says in chapter 3, verse 2: "We all stumble in many ways", and he goes on to demonstrate that stumble by saying that "no man can tame the tongue." So, guys, I guess you are better than James? I guess you can do what he says no man is capable of?
You are correct in saying that we have been made sinless "in Chirst", but you are incorrect in ignoring the fact that we still abide in the sinful flesh. If it were not so, why would the promise of a new, regenrate body make any sense? The inward man is made new, but the flesh is still dead in sin until that glorious day when we will the work of Christ will be made complete.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
paul and victor,
a couple of housekeeping issues to clean up before i fully respond.
one is for victor. i assume you were asking rhetorically if was setting a trap for you when i asked how you deal with sin. in case not, my answer to you is that i was not intending to do so. i do see how my question set you up for an unintended predicament, though!
secondly, in questions regarding speaking to God i left out an operative word. that word being "audibly." yes, i believe billions have spoken to God and i believe that He speaks to me through His Word and Holy Spirit. i meant to say that i have never met anyone to whom God "audibly" speaks. from your testimony and posts here, you seem to make that claim, so that is to what i have been referring.
thirdly, paul's response to ryan's encouragement to read the psalms is concerning. surely you don't believe that praying scripture is "babbling like heathens." king david, a man after God's own heart, wrote the psalms which were songs meant to be repeated over and over, verbatim. Christ did give us the Lord's prayer. i think He meant that to be prayed with perseverence, as long as your heart is in it for every word every time.
fourthly, you say you do not condemn anyone here, but that is exactly what you do. you have come in the name of God telling people here that they are the antichrist, judging them. certainly the bible says that anyone who teaches a false gospel is so, but nobody here seems to be preaching a false gospel at all. nobody here has made the claim that Jesus is not the way to salvation, and that is the gospel. the argument is if you can live totally free from sin.
the scriptures were written with many things left unexplained in order to drive us to the Lord. He tells us to ask, seek, and knock. He tells us to come to Him who are thirsty. He tells us that He pours out the Holy Spirit on us and guide us in all truth.
you say that you don't think works save us, but works are what you judge by. the guys on this blog would say "see, Jesus paid for my sins! before the Lord i am clean and i look forward to the day when i'm fully perfected. until then i'm in the process of being sanctified and need His forgiveness daily." in Romans 7 paul is contextually talking about sanctification, which is a process. steve's point regarding the tense of verbs cannot be overlooked.
look at your response to me regarding sending children to public schools. you condemn parents for doing this. i agree that public schools put our children in the proximity of sin, but the disciples went to be around sin when they went into the world. instead of judging parents who send their kids to public schools would not it be better for you to encourage parents to instruct their children in the ways of the Lord and to walk next to them, exposing the world for what it is.
you say, about driving cars, that it is not necessarily a sin. but if God gave you a directive to never drive again and you disobeyed (because driving is convenient) then you sin. i agree. and even then that would only be a directive for you only. the problem here is that you seem to decide for everyone what God has and has not told them. you tell these guys on this blog where their hearts lie, but in reality you don't know. sure, fruit is an indicator of belief, but if i can prove my belief to you through works then you've stripped me of my faith. you've cheated me. you quoted ephesians 2:8,9
"for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- and not by works so that no man can boast."
here is another example of how i feel that you use works to justify judgment, rather than rely on grace and faith. i read your link on obedience. you indicate that anyone who smokes cannot be one who is saved. you provide reasons like they dishonor their temples, dishonor their fathers and mothers because they may die early. i agree that smoking can be hazardous to one's health, but can the decision to smoke confirm or betray the heart? no! i agree that those who are saved ought to check their cravings at the door. it would be more honorable to a father and mother for their child to live long. it would be honorable to preserve the temple in which the Holy Spirit abides. the problem is, if you link smoking to salvation then where do you stop? for instance, driving cars increases greenhouse gases, which increase global temps, which increase the melt of arctic icebergs, which increase water mass, which impact ocean temps, which increase seasonal storms, which increase hurricane frequency and intensity, which cause death. so if we don't know where to stop in this charade we can say that driving kills people and therefore anyone who drives a vehicle dishonors their Lord and their parents. i think Ryan's scenario of traveling and weight gain are similar lines of thinking here. no matter, the bottom line is the same. it's all about the heart. and victor, you would nominally agree with that. you say that it's all about your heart in your response to me regarding driving. but then you continually point out actions that allow you to judge people's hearts. so which is it?
this is why it appears there will be no agreement on the matter. you and paul believe that you can be and are sinless. the rest of us believe that we, one day, will get there and that until then we rely on the blood of Christ to cover us (not to allow us to keep sinning, but to cover what our flesh is).
one can never be sure of my faith. only Christ can. the grace that abounds is available to anyone who believes and confesses, not just to anyone who "proves" to another that they have faith. if i can jump through hoops to prove to you my faith, then i don't need faith, i just need to be able to jump.
paul and victor, i implore you not to cheat us or yourselves out of faith! even if you choose not to interpret scripture the same as i do, then let's cast out the condemnation and let's agree that the blood of Jesus covers all sins entirely. we're all on the same page here. let's do this and encourage others to do the same and to follow Christ!
-pbj
Andy, we have given you some feedback in my response to PBJ. We have more to say to you now. You write:
"I can give you Scriptures that I believe are taken out of context by you guys and I can give you Scripture that I believe opposes what you speak...but I know, that if it stands in opposition to your interpretations that you will not accept it as such. You will tell me that my interpretation is wrong as you MUST b/c you claim to know the correct interpretation of all things at all times. (Please don't take my tone here as being snotty or even sarcastic...this is just the conclusion that must be reached when you consider the facts)"
This is a lie, whether consciously told or not is not the issue at the moment. The main thing for now is that what you say here is completely untrue, and is the kind of lie produced in the pits of hell, because believing it leaves you, and others, there. Let me say more. In doing so, I prove your contention false; I give you sound reason, the very thing you claim we deny you because expecting to be believed simply because we say something.
We have never claimed or insisted that anyone believe us "because we know the correct interpretation of all things at all times." Show us where we say that. Show us how we demonstrate that, with specific quotes in context.
The evidence is quite to the contrary: Our lengthy postings that identify and put away all the false notions and accusations brought forth on this blog show that we have not demanded that anyone simply take our interpretations to be the truth because we are always right. We have not neglected to answer anything of note - not one of you can say that we have. While you cannot gainsay or refute our answers, it is not right to say we have not given them and that they do not answer you.
Show us how what we are doing can be construed in any way whatsoever to be demanding that we "MUST" be right by virtue of the fact that whatever we say is right. That is damnable nonsense.
We have given ample proof to back our answers, and if you have something that proves we have taken Scriptures out of context, or are wrong in any way, it is your moral duty to bring it forth. Not only to us and the others here, but to God, Who is the Truth. How can you be honoring and loving Him if you have the Truth, but are afraid or unwilling to reveal it because of how you perceive we would react (and falsely so)? How can you be loving your neighbors if you hide what will set them free? If Christ and the apostles were like you, we would not have salvation today. They would have packed it in early on and saved their skins. No, Andy, you are following the liar, the Prince of Darkness, who loves to see things hidden so that he might keep his domain intact.
You are also doing the very thing that you accuse us of doing, which is always the way with those who refuse the entry of Truth. You are demanding to be considered right in what you say without providing proof before witnesses. It is true just because you say it, and we are expected to take your word for it. You are still playing the hypocrite. Why won't you listen for your soul's sake, and do what is good, necessary, and right?
Do know for certain that souls are at stake here. You are altogether wrong in your thinking, in your reading of this situation, and in the course you are pursuing. Your behavior teaches independence from God and neighbor. Satan's strategy is to conceal, divide and conquer. We are speaking to bring light and redemption.
"But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7 MKJV).
We absolutely do welcome your thoughts and objections, not to squash them, but to hear them and to answer them. If we are wrong in anything, we would be grateful to know it, to be corrected, and to publicly say so.
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
I'll gladly and politely explain and perhaps...I am wrong. For us to discuss this though, Please answer a few things...can you interpret Scriptures wrongly? Are you able to speak an incorrect or sinful word towards me? whether it be from Scripture or otherwise.
thx,
andy
i was not mad. and Bob, I exist. do you exist? does that large buck Andy "almost got while hunting this weekend" exist?? I need a Paultor interpretation here please....
Steve,
As you say, we have agreements on many points. Some things you state or imply that we have said we have not, making our agreement even closer than you think. For example, we never said that there are not struggles with sin for the one converted to Christ (read Our Testimonies, will you? Had you people been responsibly reading what we have provided, you would not be in the dark and in error on so many things). We also never said that the flesh is not there in the one who overcomes. We have only said there is a place, as we have shown from the testimony of the apostles, where it no longer rules as it does in you. Paul said he kept his body under (first, he had to get it there - only the one binding the strong man can do that). More on him later.
"Sinlessness" or "sinless perfection" is not a term we have used, and, as a doctrine of men, we do not teach it, because the problem with it is that it is taught from a platform of non-experience. In other words, those who teach it do not have that of which John wrote, so they do not know what they are talking about. Once again, John's words:
"Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 John 3:9 MKJV).
Neither you nor anyone else here has been able to explain away this testimony. There is much more just like it, some of which we have already given you.
A foundational aspect of our failure to communicate here is that you are using different definitions for key words, ones which deviate from the Scriptural meanings, because you do not know what you are talking about. For example, you say this:
"When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body."
You are wrong altogether about salvation. One is not saved when one first professes to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Firstly, the profession may be false, like Simon the magician. Secondly, even if built on a true foundation, salvation is a process, a journey, which is not secure, if not completed:
"Is there anyone here who, planning to build a new house, doesn't first sit down and figure the cost so you'll know if you can complete it? If you only get the foundation laid and then run out of money, you're going to look pretty foolish. Everyone passing by will poke fun at you: 'He started something he couldn't finish.' Or can you imagine a king going into battle against another king without first deciding whether it is possible with his ten thousand troops to face the twenty thousand troops of the other? And if he decides he can't, won't he send an emissary and work out a truce? Simply put, if you're not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it good-bye, you can't be My disciple" (Luke 14:28-33 MSG).
And what happens to His disciples? We have the example and words of Paul, that "all those who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Are they yet saved? Hear more of what the Lord said:
"Behold, I am sending you forth like sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves. But beware of men, for they will hand you over to councils and they will flog you in their synagogues. And you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the nations. But whenever they hand you over, do not worry how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father Who is speaking in you. Now brother will hand over brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents, and put them to death. And you will be hated by all people for My Name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:16-22 EMTV).
Have you testified to the adversaries of God by His Spirit? Have you been betrayed by your brethren and families because of your testimony of Christ? Have you been hated by all people for His Name's sake? And, after being hated, have you endured to the end? No? Then you are not saved.
Because our salvation is a process, does that mean the outcome is uncertain? Not in the least! The Lord's work is certain, and His faithfulness never in doubt:
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful Who promised)" (Hebrews 10:23 MKJV).
"Faithful is He Who called you, Who also will do it" (1 Thessalonians 5:24 MKJV).
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself" (2 Timothy 2:13 EMTV).
But we also see that in this life many are called, but few are chosen. Not many are given to endure to the end and overcome. That does not negate God's faithfulness in Christ, because, as we have also told you many times, He is the Savior of all men.
Therefore, having built your edifice on a false foundation, not knowing or understanding what salvation is or how it is attained by the faith of Christ, you do not understand what we affirm or what you deny.
As with the old saying about the baby and the bathwater, you are throwing the Baby (Christ) out, and telling us we do not believe in the bathwater (the process of transformation), which we, or more precisely the Lord, has disposed of because it is no longer needed after we are washed and sanctified. (By the way, you have yet to even get into the bathtub, having a form of religion, but not true repentance. The process of being cleansed by the blood of Christ and renewed in His image is just as theoretical for you as "sinless perfection" is to those who preach that.)
Does a butterfly remain in its cocoon, or seek to retain it? Does the Lord not address this matter in multiple ways, by His Word and creation? "Does not even nature teach you...?"
"And at the harvest, the delicate herbs and spices, the dill and cumin, are treated delicately. On the other hand, wheat is threshed and milled, but still not endlessly. The farmer knows how to treat each kind of grain. He's learned it all from GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies, Who knows everything about when and how and where" (Isaiah 28:27-29 MSG).
Yes, I agree that Paul did speak in the present tense in Romans 7, but not because he was still at war with his flesh. Rather, it was because others were, and they had to go through the same things he did, presently, to find the place where victory in Christ could be declared:
"O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with the mind serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:24-25 EMTV).
Paul had this victory, and was thereafter no longer serving the law of sin, but was alive. Without question, this is his testimony:
"I have been put to death on the cross with Christ; still I am living; no longer I, but Christ is living in me; and that life which I now am living in the flesh I am living by faith, the faith of the Son of God, Who in love for me, gave Himself up for me" (Galatians 2:20 BBE).
"Therefore, brothers [those in whom dwells the Holy Spirit of God], we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die. But if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans 8:12-14 MKJV).
Paul was exhorting the Romans, and all who hear his words, to see this battle through to the end, putting to death the body, and living thereafter by Christ as the sons of God. Does God sin? Is life possible with sin? Is not death the outcome of sin? Paul was talking about having life and being led of God, Who is not tempted with sin. He was preaching this place to all who believe and call on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that they must come to it or they would not have salvation. Paul had what he preached:
"And those who are Christ's have put to death on the cross the flesh with its passions and its evil desires" (Galatians 5:24 BBE).
What is put to death is dead. We could not know what Paul was saying or meaning but by the Spirit, Whom you have yet to receive.
What army goes to war not to win the battle, but to fight with no end in sight? Such a notion is absurd, and God does not give us nonsense for examples. On the contrary, clearly He sets us in the battle to win, and He promises us the victory if we persevere. To the victor go the spoils. All of God's promises of life are "Yes" in Christ Jesus. We can, and must, have victory and life, here, in this world, or He is a liar and His death was in vain. The last portion is your stance.
Another example of believers fighting the war between spirit and flesh, having not yet overcome themselves, are the Corinthians (by the way, they were baptized in the Spirit, having the wherewith to fight the battle - you people have not even come to this place. You need to repent). To them Paul wrote:
"And I, brothers, could not speak to you as to spiritual ones, but as to fleshly, as to babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1 MKJV).
Little children must grow up, and, in the course of God's work in Christ and His timing in all things, they will prevail and be victorious, because partners and partakers with Him:
"I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:14 MKJV).
Does James preach something different than John and Paul? By saying that no man can tame the tongue, is James saying the tongue cannot be tamed? Not at all. He says:
"Let not many of you be teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive heavier judgment. For in many things we all stumble. If anyone doesn't stumble in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also" (James 3:1-2 HNV).
There are those who do not stumble in word, being made perfect in Christ, which means to be brought to maturity in Him. James would not talk about what does not exist. How else could he, or other apostles, teach others the way of salvation, if they did not have it themselves? What tongue, if not a sanctified one, fully subject to the new nature in Christ that comes with the new birth, was he using to preach the gospel and to teach Christ?
James is not saying what you say he is saying. It is antiChrist to think that the tongue remains as described in the statement he makes about it (the wicked thing it has been in the unregenerate man) after Christ has come to give a man a new heart and to deliver him from the lower and corrupt nature. The tongue is an expression of the heart. The new birth in Christ brings a new heart. We have been telling you about this new birth, the Second Adam, the Lord from Heaven, but you do not believe He exists, in us.
Here is the whole text from James, which refutes your interpretation, and sets in order exactly what is happening among us, with everything we have been telling you:
James 3:8-18 WNT
(8) But the tongue no man or woman is able to tame. It is an ever-busy mischief, and is full of deadly poison. [It is impossible to be a man-made Christian; man does not have the power of self-reformation.]
(9) With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in God's likeness. [That is what you are doing, blessing God, but cursing us, those who are made in God's likeness.]
(10) Out of the same mouth there proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, this ought not to be. [This is not the way of Christ, and is not acceptable to Him. What He does not accept He makes a way to be otherwise.]
(11) In a fountain, are fresh water and bitter sent forth from the same opening? [You cannot produce righteousness and unrighteousness. Because you produce unrighteousness, that means your righteousness is also unrighteous.]
(12) Can a fig-tree, my brethren, yield olives, or a vine yield figs? No; and neither can salt water yield sweet. [Repeated for emphasis to establish the unmovable truth: Only the Spirit of God working in a man can, and will, produce righteous fruits.]
(13) Which of you is a wise and well-instructed man? Let him prove it by a right life with conduct guided by a wisely teachable spirit. [The wise in Christ will learn from godly teachers and will manifest a godly life.]
(14) But if in your hearts you have bitter feelings of envy and rivalry, do not speak boastfully and falsely, in defiance of the truth. [Are you not bitter, envious, and contentious without cause and justification, in defiance of the Truth?]
(15) That is not the wisdom which comes down from above: it belongs to earth, to the unspiritual nature, and to evil spirits. [The source of your words and deeds is revealed.]
(16) For where envy and rivalry are, there also are unrest and every vile deed. [Much of what has been spoken by several in this blog has been for the sake of rivalry, of showing off, and not for the Lord and Truth.]
(17) The wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceful, courteous, not self-willed, full of compassion and kind actions, free from favoritism and from all insincerity. [Though you cry foul, we have had just cause to tell you the truth, which is for your sakes, and we have been sincere, patient and thorough in our responses from the Lord Jesus.]
(18) And peace, for those who strive for peace, is the seed of which the harvest is righteousness. [Our respective harvests will tell the story, and do already, for those who have eyes to see.]
You try to mock us, as if we are proposing we are better than James. As we have shown, we simply believe his word, which you do not:
"Blessed are those who endure when they are tested. When they pass the test, they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12 GW).
"But let patience have its perfective work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing" (James 1:4 LITV).
Neither, as we have shown, do you believe Paul or John or Peter or David or Moses or John the Baptist or Jesus the Christ. If this is the story you insist on sticking to, it will surely stick to you, and that which seemed so right will be found to be the way of death, which only the Word of Truth Whom we preach will destroy:
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV).
"The weapons we use in our fight are not the world's weapons but God's powerful weapons, which we use to destroy strongholds. We destroy false arguments; we pull down every proud obstacle that is raised against the knowledge of God; we take every thought captive and make it obey Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:1-5 GNB).
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Give me a break, Paul. How can you possibly say that you’ve never claimed to have all the right answers?! You did so in the paragraph right before you claimed you’ve never done it! I swear, this is like arguing with my three-year-old.
Andy,
As human beings born of sinful flesh, we certainly can and have done all things wrong. The issue is not us, but what you believe about the Lord Jesus Christ. Can He take possession of what He has purchased, and make it entirely His? Can He make a new creation, giving us new hearts to walk as He walked on this earth? If not, then the apostles are liars and the Scriptures they wrote are lies. The prophets, too, gave false words and promises from God. But if these things are all true (we attest that they are), then it should be no secret to you that God would have you to be righteous, even as He is righteous.
Does Jesus Christ have the present power to deliver us from sin and sinning, or does He not? If not, why does He require of us righteous living?
Does He have the present power to make us know the Truth and to be set free, or does He not? If not, how can He require obedience to Him?
So the question for you is not whether Victor and Paul have been sinners, but whether they are sent by the Lord Jesus Christ, as were His prophets and apostles who wrote the Bible.
Who was doing the work there, men or God? If God, why do you not believe what they wrote? If men, why do you claim to believe it?
Who is doing the work here, Victor and Paul, or Jesus Christ? How would you know the difference, when you do not even realize or acknowledge that there is such a thing as one living in Him, as Paul the apostle said of himself, no longer to the lusts of the flesh, but by His power, speaking His Word to deliver those yet in their sins?
Paul
www.thepathotruth.com
Ryan is confused about what I said to Andy because one cannot hear properly with his fingers stuck in his ears, though he listens to what we say with the intent to find fault and perverts what he hears to find it. Satan comes to find fault in God's messengers to discredit Him and His Word, not to search out and hear the Truth.
I ask the one reading this, what are you looking for?
Here is what was said:
"We have never claimed or insisted that anyone believe us 'because we know the correct interpretation of all things at all times.' Show us where we say that. Show us how we demonstrate that, with specific quotes in context.
"The evidence is quite to the contrary: Our lengthy postings that identify and put away all the false notions and accusations brought forth on this blog show that we have not demanded that anyone simply take our interpretations to be the truth because we are always right. We have not neglected to answer anything of note - not one of you can say that we have. While you cannot gainsay or refute our answers, it is not right to say we have not given them and that they do not answer you."
We never said, as Andy put words in our mouths to say, that you should believe us because we say we have all the correct answers. We say that our answers prove whether or not they are correct. The issue is not us, but our words. Those with uncircumcised hearts, not being able to deny or reject our words, look for ways to reject us, as if that will get rid of the words that condemn their ways. But if we speak the Word of God, the Truth, which no one here has been able to refute, then the Lord Jesus said this about our words (which are truly His):
"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away" (Luke 21:33 KJV).
Who is the "three-year old," Ryan? You are just as Isaiah prophesied of you, the Lord Jesus Christ confirming His words:
"And He said, Go, and tell this people, You hear indeed, but do not understand; and seeing you see, but do not know. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn back, and be healed" (Isaiah 6:9-10 MKJV).
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
ok paul, that's great...I think once again you've made some good points.
so answer the question now? Can you currently interpret Scriptures incorrectly? With or without the help of the Spirit...whatever and however...just is it possible for you right now? not a number of years ago when you were still dead in your sins...but now. That's all i asked...i wasn't saying that it was possible or impossible...just asking. That's the question. I'm not being mean here Paul but this is back to non-sequitor. You tell me what Christ has the power to do in several situations...and that's good. But you don't tell me specifically about you. At least in direct response to what I asked. I appreciate you telling me what I really should be asking...and i understand your point which we can address as well if you'd like. I realize its not by your wisdom and its not You that's specifically doing all these things (and i'm glad you admit that). But still, you are able to answer the question. And actually, a response to this is necessary for me to understand where you're coming from.
then I'll gladly respond.
thanks,
andy
PBJ,
Regarding whether Victor was asking rhetorically if you were setting a trap for him when you asked how he deals with sin, the answer is no. We do not see how this question set up a predicament, however. If worthwhile, can you explain?
Your question about God speaking to us was altogether confused, not only because you left out the word "audibly," but also because you were asking Victor if he talked to God, not if God talked to him, whether audibly or not. Nevertheless, Victor answered your question. Indeed, God does talk to him, as He does to all of His sheep, who hear His voice. Are you telling us you do not believe what Jesus said?
He does not speak to us audibly (as, for example, at Mount Sinai) just as we do not visually see Him when He speaks to us. There was the time God spoke audibly to His Son, but that, Jesus said, was for the benefit of those who stood by.
You have not answered our question about the apostle John, either. "Was John a foolish man or a liar?" Perhaps that will be in your full response.
As for repetition of prayer, the Lord was speaking to Israelites, not the heathen, when He said these words:
"And in your prayer do not make use of the same words again and again, as the Gentiles do: for they have the idea that God will give attention to them because of the number of their words" (Matthew 6:7 BBE).
Were there not Jews putting their trust in the Scriptures, falsely so (John 5:39, for example)? What words would they, as Israelites, be tempted to use in vain prayers, if not the Scriptures? The issue Jesus was addressing was not the words but the trust put in them, in the letter and not in the Spirit. Such trust comes through the spiritual organ known as that "desperately wicked and deceitful" heart, which you tell us is trustworthy ("as long as your heart is in it for every word every time.") The reciting of rote prayers is trusting in the righteousness of your own heart, and not in God, Who is not moved or pleased by those who walk in their own righteousness.
The same goes for the "Lord's Prayer." Reciting those words daily, no matter how great an emphasis you put on each word, even with great drops of sincere sweat dripping from your brow, will do you no good. The words of that prayer are an attitude and lifestyle the Lord was summing up, not something to be spoken regularly at meals or on formal, religious occasions. You people have it all backwards. You think that by doing these things you will come to God, or will get Him to come to you, but that is not the expression of the righteousness of Christ's faith (Romans 10:6-11). It is an expression of man's unbelief, that he must get it done because certainly God will not, as if He does not want to give us the right way and we must extract it from Him! How unbelieving! It is the very thing the Lord was addressing in the words I just quoted above (Matthew 6:7).
You people worship the form and the letter. You worship the past and the future, but not the present, sovereign, omnipotent Lord Jesus Christ. He came that we might know Him and His righteousness. Indeed, that is true salvation. You don't know Him and that is why you trust in yourselves and oppose Him. Here is what He said about how acceptable your sincere worship is to Him:
"He who kills an ox is as if he killed a man; he who sacrifices a lamb is as if he broke a dog's neck; he who offers an offering is as if he offered swine's blood; he who burns incense is as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations" (Isaiah 66:3 MKJV).
As I accurately said, Ryan's suggestion of my praying the Psalm daily for a month is no different in spirit than the Catholic priest prescribing so many prayers to you on the rosary after confession. Your praying of Scripture is in vain:
"But to the wicked, God says, What is it to you, to declare My Precepts, and to take up My covenant in your mouth? Yea, you hate to be taught, and you toss My Words behind you" (Psalms 50:16-17 MKJV).
So, are we condemning those who gather here, or is the Word of God condemning them because they choose iniquity rather than hearing and heeding Him in their ways? Why do you refuse His Law and counsel, and then expect to be blessed in your ways?
"You have done these things, and I kept silent. You thought that the 'I AM' was just like you. I will rebuke you, and accuse you in front of your eyes. Now consider this, you who forget God, lest I tear you into pieces, and there be none to deliver" (Psalms 50:21-22 HNV).
You write: "...nobody here seems to be preaching a false gospel at all."
The operative word is "seems." They may not seem like it to you, being conditioned by the harlot and ignorant of God's ways and will, but we have shown that there is no question about it in the sight of God, according to His Holy Word (which we have given you), that those here, such as Steve and Ryan, preach another gospel, just as Paul warned that many would do.
You write: "nobody here has made the claim that Jesus is not the way to salvation, and that is the gospel."
By your measurement, all of those contending for souls in the Name of Christ, in their various organizations with myriad contradictions, hypocrisies and blasphemies, are all indeed correct and are true preachers of the gospel. If so, what was Paul warning believers about, and why was it so important to him, and to the Lord, that we know that there would be a false gospel preached in the Name of Christ? Paul wrote:
"I marvel that you are turning so quickly from Him Who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; except there are certain people who trouble you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach a gospel to you other than what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:6-8 EMTV).
Yes, the true gospel preaches salvation through Christ alone, not another, yet there are many who pervert it and are accursed. Those who follow them end up in the ditch too. Otherwise, why all the warnings? PBJ, it is not so much that you are naive as that you are still in your sins and therefore in darkness.
Can you tell the difference? Apparently not. Don't you think it would be good for you to begin to consider that you do not know nearly as much as you think to know, in light of the facts? In truth, you know nothing yet as you ought to. Read: Mystery's Message.
Rather than speak about things in the theoretical, if you "can live totally free from sin," let's deal with real, on-the-ground facts. Let's identify your sin so that you might repent of it and have Life. Read Is Your Profession of Faith Vain, Christian? and The True Marks of a Cult.
You write: "the scriptures were written with many things left unexplained in order to drive us to the Lord. He tells us to ask, seek, and knock. He tells us to come to Him who are thirsty. He tells us that He pours out the Holy Spirit on us and guide us in all truth."
Your point? We do not see any of you doing these things. Certainly the Spirit has not been poured out on you. You don't even believe it yourself. We see the opposite. We see you hiding your faces, stopping your ears, and screaming at God, "Get away from us, You fool. Who do You think You are, calling us into account for our sins? We are covered by the blood! We believe!"
We are judging you by your fruits, which tell what kind of works you do, whether of man or of God. Though claiming to be clean, you people are not clean at all. You are not under the blood of Christ. You do indeed follow a false gospel and Christ. We have been over this many times. Read the postings. You may have done so, but not responsibly and not with anything resembling comprehension. I have answered Romans 7 several times now, directly and indirectly. You will have to bring forth specifics if you disagree.
Regarding sending children to public schools, there is no condemnation, except for those who know better, as the apostle says:
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin" (James 4:17 EMTV).
You liken sending children to public school to the disciples going "to be around sin when they went into the world." If you are talking about the Lord sending His disciples to preach in various cities and in the world, those were grown men He had trained, equipped and prepared for battle, a very different situation from parents sending their children to public school for 12 years. The Lord told the disciples to wipe the dust from their feet, leaving those places behind that did not receive them. Are you seriously comparing this to the experience and options of a child in public school? Foolish man. Get knowledge by the blood before you open your mouth without shame and embarrass yourself.
You write that we "tell these guys on this blog where their hearts lie, but in reality [we] don't know."
How do you know? Are you asking us to take your word for it that you know this to be a fact? You say that fruits are an indicator, "but if i can prove my belief to you through works then you've stripped me of my faith."
What does the Bible say about that? Does God agree with you? Here is what He gave James to tell us:
"But someone will say, 'One person has faith, another has actions.' My answer is, 'Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions'" (James 2:18 GNB).
The Hebrews writer: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1 MKJV).
God says the very opposite of what you say. He is not in agreement with you. He sent John the Baptizer, who demanded to see fruits before accepting anyone's word for anything. Your definition and concept of "faith" is not the one put forth in Scripture but that of the carnal man, the imposter. Genuine faith is not "blind." It has substance, unlike that which you represent. How little you know of the Scriptures or of the ways of God. As Jesus said of you:
"Jesus answered and said to them, Is this not the reason you are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?" (Mark 12:24 EMTV)
So no, we are not robbing you of faith; we are just exposing the fact that you have none of Christ's, the authentic saving kind. Your faith and works tell us they are the kind that comes from men, who exert their carnal thinking and efforts in works that do not deliver from sin. Do you not all admit the latter fact is the case? You need to repent.
I do not think you can prove that driving a car causes death by greenhouse gases in the same way that a person smoking is jeopardizing his or her health. You are really stretching things. At any rate, we have no such conviction from God, and do not know driving a car to be sin. If you know this is so for yourself, then it is sin to you to be driving.
You write to Victor: "...you continually point out actions that allow you to judge people's hearts." Can you cite us specific instances where we have judged wrongly? Obviously you are judging us to be judging wrongly, so bring forth your evidence to show where and how we are in error, with Scriptural backing.
We have cited your very words, your fruits by the lips, many times, as we do here even now.
You write: "...this is why it appears there will be no agreement on the matter. you and paul believe that you can be and are sinless. the rest of us believe that we, one day, will get there and that until then we rely on the blood of Christ to cover us (not to allow us to keep sinning, but to cover what our flesh is)."
There is no agreement - not because we say we are right, but because you cannot answer what we have said or quoted you from Scripture. You do not believe the Lord or His Scriptures, as we have repeatedly shown. There can be no agreement between Light and darkness. We do not call you darkness as a derogatory term, but as a descriptive one, because the Lord describes what you do as follows:
"And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the Light, because their works were evil. For everyone that does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works be exposed" (John 3:19-20 EMTV).
Therefore, what you say to us is utterly false, that we "can never be sure of [your] faith." Your faith, or lack of true faith, is written all over you, and is expressed in everything you say and do. Truly, these things are not hidden from those in Heaven, where we, as those truly in Christ, are. Being recognized for what your faith is, and what it is not, is only a matter of having one's eyes opened in Christ, because we walk with Him in the Light, and are, therefore, able to see. That you do not know or understand that this is the way things work is itself proof of being in the dark. As the apostle John wrote:
"We are of God. He that knows God hears us; he that is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6 EMTV).
We know the spirit of error, and would be remiss if we did not identify it, particularly for the sake of those in error.
The end of the matter, PBJ and all listening in, is that we are not cheating anyone out of faith. You have cheated yourselves, because you cheat God, refusing His words and counsel, and we have pointed this out to all of you with many examples, both here and on our website. The blood of Christ does cover all sins, but first you must repent and come to Him, not in religion, but in reality, which none of you has done. Thus speak your words, your works and your fruits. That we have spoken these things faithfully in the Lord means your blood is not on our hands, but is on your own heads.
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
paul,
i am out of town and cannot respond in full, but i will say a few things and hopefully you will not be offended as i have only a little time to access the computer.
the "predicament" thing isn't really important, but what i meant (so there is clarity) is that i asked how you deal with sin. since you guys say you do not you can't really answer that question in full without tripping yourself. i didn't mean it that way, it's just the way i accidentally stated it. i saw, after victor responded, that obviously you couldn't "deal with sin" (as i stated it) if you are sinless. anyway, non importo. it was simply mea culpa.
in response to the latter of your most recent post to me, i'm not sure at this point why you even care for me to respond. you keep asking us to respond, but you never recognize anything we tell you in truth. you just don't believe me. you tell me to repent, but i do. you tell me to believe, but i do. you tell me i would hear from God if i believed, but i do. i've said all of this already. just because you don't believe me doesn't make it so. have you asked God if He knows me? if not, then you are talking out of your [balaam's donkey]. but more to the point, why would you bother asking God something like that? let my yes be yes...it's not really up to you.
and, yes, you continually strip us of faith. you don't know my actions. you don't know my fruit so what else do you have? you don't even know me or care to know me so why do you waste your time continuing to respond? yes, you are wasting your time.
i'm not at all sure what you mean by worshiping a past and future God only. can you expand on how i fail to worship the present Lord? i am interested in what you mean here. perhaps there is something legitimate for me to examine.
lastly, driving cars and greenhouse gases isn't a stretch at all. and, no, i wouldn't equate sending kids to public schools with the apostles going out, but my point was clearly missed. the point is that you think sending kids to public schools is a sin, when it must just be a sin for you.
anyway, there are so many other things i wish i had time for. i will try to respond more later.
-pbj
a few more quick responses...
you say "The words of that prayer are an attitude and lifestyle the Lord was summing up, not something to be spoken regularly at meals or on formal, religious occasions. You people have it all backwards."
yes! i agree! but how in the world do you know how, when, and with what sincerity i pray the Lord's prayer? this is the same junk you throw out time and time again. YOU have no proof! what for a second makes you think i repeat the Lord's prayer only at church and before meals! what an amazingly poor performance on your part. you simply don't know. yes, those words are an attitude and lifestyle. but you are very foolish and ignorant to assume how i use the Word of God. to the point that has been made by me and missed by you over and over: you don't know! i never said that i thought "God would come to me" if i prayed anything rotely or verbatim. show me where i've said such a thing. that is totally false. i agree with you on that to be sure. likewise, teaching a child at home or eating only organic vegetables does not please the Lord either. so please take some of your own medicine for your soul's sake.
furthermore, you call me a foolish man. what makes you think i am a man? perhaps i am and perhaps i am not. apparently, again, you have chosen to conjecture rather than to know. so who is the foolish, foolish man?! i do know that you are a man, you see. and please, let's not say that you were calling "man" as though just including me in the race of man. seriously! time after time you ask for "proof" and self-righteously assert people have only provided "opinions". look in the mirror! you have failed again.
you lose all credibility when you make gross and errant assumptions. please cease and desist.
you say "You people worship the form and the letter. You worship the past and the future, but not the present, sovereign, omnipotent Lord Jesus Christ. He came that we might know Him and His righteousness."
not sure what you mean by the first part of that, but as to the the second: yes! yes! when have i said anything opposed to this? again, please come with evidence before you speak. i would be curious how i have come against God (not how you think i have) and proclaimed anything other than the gospel. i believe it IS all about knowing Him and His righteousness. where have i contradicted this?
that is my goal; to know Him and His righteousness. i do repent. i do know Him and He draws me nearer daily.
-pbj
PBJ, I am responding to your previous post, but will answer your current one as well. In it you say: "i never said that i thought 'God would come to me' if i prayed anything rotely or verbatim. show me where i've said such a thing. that is totally false."
Here is where:
"...paul's response to ryan's encouragement to read the psalms is concerning. [Ryan's request: "Please consider praying Ps. 139:23-24 for a full month."].....king david, a man after God's own heart, wrote the psalms which were songs meant to be repeated over and over, verbatim. Christ did give us the Lord's prayer. i think He meant that to be prayed with perseverence, as long as your heart is in it for every word every time."
So you and Ryan wanted me to connect with your false god and "Christ" by repeatedly praying the same thing, day after day, which requires human perseverance and sincerity of the flesh, as you practice yourself. No, PBJ, I have not had to assume how you use the Scriptures, because you have already told me yourself. I only affirm that your prayers are not inspired by God, and the Lord Jesus Christ does not hear them. They do not bring you closer to Him, or Him closer to you, as you suppose or hope.
You say:
"what for a second makes you think i repeat the Lord's prayer ONLY [emphasis added] at church and before meals!"
So I gave you the benefit of a doubt that you were not that obsessive about praying your version of the rosary. On this I stand corrected.
Here is my reply to your next to last posting:
PBJ, we are not at all offended that you do not have time to respond. As we are saying to Andy, the things we have brought up and asked of you are for your sake, not ours. You are not doing us any service or favors with answers that ignore the Substance and dwell on non-existent and irrelevant issues. If your answers were godly and edifying, on the other hand, we would be more than glad to wait for them.
There are so many other things that you say and do that are offensive, to which you give no recognition whatsoever, yet you focus on something trivial like this, which is no problem at all. Such is indicative of your problem. You cannot see, so you do not know what is an issue and what is not. Instead of admitting this and being humbled to receive help and direction, you try to play the part of the knowledgeable and concerned Christian, showing everyone how righteous you are in a matter of no consequence. You are trying to shine rather than have the Light shone on you, which happens every time we answer you in Truth, Whom you reject.
We are not speaking these things only for you, but for everyone here: No matter whom we write to here, whether it is to you, PBJ, or Andy, the principles by which we speak are applicable to all. We are not speaking loose words. We are not, as with you, careless and irresponsible with what we say. Not only are you called into account for every idle word you have spoken (and you have spoken many), you are also called into account for every word you have heard. The Lord holds you responsible for every bit of it. Pleading ignorance will no longer do, because you have now heard the Truth.
"Jesus then said, 'I came into the world to bring everything into the clear light of day, making all the distinctions clear, so that those who have never seen will see, and those who have made a great pretense of seeing will be exposed as blind.' Some Pharisees overheard him and said, 'Does that mean you're calling us blind?' Jesus said, 'If you were really blind, you would be blameless, but since you claim to see everything so well, you're accountable for every fault and failure'" (John 9:39-41 MSG).
You continue to speak foolishly. While our conversation on this blog is not about greenhouse gases, the principles we illuminate are important regardless of the low level of the subject matter. These principles, applied to the topic at hand, make evident your lack of reason and your inability to handle the very basic matters of thought and analysis in everyday life. And if you cannot handle the earthly things, how much less can you handle the Heavenly, which are so far removed from the earth:
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, or your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9 BBE).
You had made an analogy between what you say is our personal judgment of sin of others (smoking) and our driving of cars, by which you say we are creating greenhouse gases that kill people and destroy the earth. I replied:
"I do not think you can prove that driving a car causes death by greenhouse gases in the same way that a person smoking is jeopardizing his or her health. You are really stretching things."
To which you now say: "driving cars and greenhouse gases isn't a stretch at all."
So are you telling me that there is no difference to you between the person who lights up cigarette after cigarette, for the pleasure it gives him, and the person who drives to work to feed his family? Or how about more personally, in our situation, where we have a farm, and we use combustion engines to produce and distribute food? Is that sin? How about you? Are you sinning by eating the food that comes to you by delivery from afar? Can you not see how stupid you insist on being? No; you cannot. Therefore we are sent to show you.
The worst part, the part that is sin to you, is that you have the audacity to presume things and to speak when you do not know what you are saying. You do not know what sin is and what it is not. Sin is what God says, not what man says, it is. Our letters reveal the sins from which you people need to repent, but you close your ears and cry, "Law!" We have also given you writings that speak to these things in even greater depth, with specifics, but, as already pointed out more than once, you people are heedless, because you are in sin and adamantly refuse the entry of Truth.
This is how you fail to worship the Lord in the present. And this is how we deal with sin. We are one with the Light of all men, by Whom we expose and rebuke sin in those who say they are clean, but are not. The Lord has given us, His saints, to wash one another's feet, but we do that among those whom He has already cleansed and has declared clean (John 13:10). You are not among those. You are not clean, and yet need an entire washing of your being. You have never repented or known the Lord Jesus Christ.
"If any one does not love the Lord Jesus Christ--let him be anathema! The Lord has come!" (1 Corinthians 16:22 YLT)
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Andy (and all others reading), I will try again, this time apparently giving you what you want, but taking care that we give effort that you receive what the Lord wants. By indulging your compulsion to limit the walk of faith to a carnal level, where you are, and where it is not, we do you no justice. Hopefully, we will not compromise, for your sake.
Of course we can give an intellectual interpretation to Scripture and to anything else for that matter. We can guess, speculate, opine, surmise, imagine, and do all those things that the earthy man has ability to do, which are all legitimate in their place, in earth, but not necessarily fruitful or even acceptable in the Kingdom. And the flesh or carnal man can only sin, it can do no other; but which do we choose to focus on, to yield to, to walk in? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. If we choose Heaven, because He is with us and resides within us, we cannot walk in the flesh.
While you can join your church, we cannot join ours. Men add to their churches and come and go as they please:
"Then Jesus said to them, My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its works are evil" (John 7:6-7 MKJV).
"Concerning the works of men, by the Words of Your lips, I am kept from the paths of the destroyer" (Psalms 17:4 MKJV).
We have heard His voice. God has called us out of those works, where you remain:
"And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues. For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds" (Revelation 18:4-5 MKJV).
But the Lord adds daily to His Church, the one "made without hands," such as should be saved:
"Praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved" (Acts 2:47 MKJV).
You can't have it both ways.
"For also by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13 MKJV).
Those who have been added to the Church are also added to the Kingdom, for the Church is His Body, His Body is clean, without sin (Would you argue against that, Andy?), and He is the King of the Kingdom, sitting on His throne, the Kingdom being, as He said, within. What is the Kingdom of God? It is the rulership of God in the heart of man. The Lord Jesus Christ reigns supreme.
You insist on focusing on the carnal man, the flesh, in which "dwells no good thing." Why? We say it is because that is all you have. And when we declare the reality and position of victory in Christ, that "Shangri-la," that "Fountain of Youth," that "Holy Grail," that "Ark of the Covenant," you don't believe us. We wield the famous "Excalibur," the Sword of the Spirit, having successfully drawn it out of The Stone, against which you are all powerless, yet you don't believe us.
Fantasies all have their origins in Truth. It all began with Truth, the Source from Whom all things come. But we have been granted to find our way back to the Truth. We need no more dreams of flying to Never-Never Land with Peter Pan. We have overcome.
"For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, pulling down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:4-5 MKJV).
We have the reality in Jesus Christ, by His blood, by identification with Him in His death and resurrection. He has done it for us, all glory to Him.
To you, it is a myth. You believe it as you did in Santa Claus when you were three. You are "adult children," fancying your dreams, but we have the Reality in maturity, and it is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy myth, we tell you.
Of John the Baptist it is recorded:
"Then he said to the crowd that came forth to be baptized by him, O generation of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Luke 3:7 MKJV)
If we say what John said (and we do), you say to us, "You're judging! What right do you have to say that? Nobody's perfect! You don't sin? Ha!"
But Paul and I are greater than John the Baptist. Why don't you find fault with him? How is it you press us with the question, "Do you sin?" as though you can accept no other answer than "yes"?
Tell us: How would John be able to speak such words to the multitude if he were sinning himself? Would he not be a hypocrite? Did he say, "We are all sinners; let's just love one another; we are all a generation of vipers"? No; neither was John a hypocrite.
Of John, Jesus said:
"For I say to you, Among those who are born of woman there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist. But he who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he" (Luke 7:28 MKJV).
If you were in the Kingdom, even as the least, you would understand, but you don't understand. What is worse, you refuse. Yet, have we not been hugely patient with you?
Let me ask you a question (You and others press on your question, but are not quite so eager to answer those we ask – examine our letters and you will find questions you have ignored or treated as rhetorical, and indeed to some, they could be, but not to you and your friends.):
You say, "We can't help but sin, though we believe."
But Paul says, "Be righteously awake, and sin not; for some have ignorance of God. I speak this to your shame" (1 Corinthians 15:34 MKJV).
Where do you see Paul ever saying, "We can't help but sin"? Yes, he said, "I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing." Paul Cohen and I readily speak the same with him concerning our flesh. But you do not see it as we do. Your Bible seems to say something else, and indeed it does.
You say, "Only Jesus is without sin."
But Jesus says (to those who are truly His), "He who is bathed has no need except to wash his feet, but is clean every whit. And you are clean, but not all" (John 13:10 MKJV).
Are you His or are you of the "not all," Andy, Ryan, PBJ, Steve, Bob and company?
The things we have brought up and asked of you are for your sakes, not ours.
You have been in a spirit of rivalry, competition, and pride. We are speaking for the Truth and for you, and not to vaunt ourselves.
You people say, "We can't help but compromise. We are adulterers and adulteresses (we sin all the time) by our fallen nature."
But James says, "Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever desires to be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4 MKJV).
"A friend of the world"? You say, "Hey, let's show the world we aren't freaky, religious, holier-than-thous. Let's befriend them. Let's show them we're normal. Let's show them that Christians can have fun too – that we're real people. That's the only way we are going to win them to Christ (as if you cared for Him). Didn't the apostle Paul say, 'To those without the Law, I was as without the Law? I became as them to win them'?"
But James says, "Whoever desires to be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
How does James win the world? By going to gladiatorial events or games? No, he preaches the Truth and lays down his life, gladly labeled everything evil in the book because he loves the Lord. But you people love your football games and killing animals in the wild, not because you need to eat, but for sport. Is that not so? Tell me how many you win to Christ doing those things the flesh and the world love to do.
If you were of the world and said so, we would not find fault with you, but when you are of the world and say, "We are Christ's," we most certainly find fault with you, adulterers, adulteresses, brood of vipers, and hypocrites. You are either of the world or you are not.
You say, vainly quoting Scripture, "We are in the world but not of it." We say to you that you are both, but what is particularly damning for you is that you say you see; you say you are His while defending the world, the flesh and sin itself, though you deny it. Hypocrites.
You say, "Hey, cut some slack; be cool. Even Jesus and the disciples took breaks."
John says, "Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (1 John 2:15-16 MKJV).
You both love the world and say so, yet you call Jesus your Savior. How is it you do not call Him "Lord" in reality, but only with your lips, if that? He said:
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters" (Luke 11:23 MKJV).
You all say, "We all sin; we can't help but sin." But we say, along with Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John and all those who live in and for the Lord, by His grace and power, "You mustn't sin."
You are either in or you are out. Steve says, "We are in 'positionally' but not 'actually.'" Yes, in your dreams, you are in, but, actually, you are right – you are out, and you only serve to scatter and to hinder.
The Door Man will not allow you to stand blocking the entrance when He wills that others come:
"Woe to you, lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and you have hindered those who were entering in" (Luke 11:52 MKJV).
You throw out smoke bombs of foolish notions and false doctrine, thus concealing the entrance so that others can't find the way.
James does not say, "We adulterers and adulteresses," as you people say. He says, "(You) adulterers and adulteresses."
You say, "We sin all the time; we drive cars; we do this or that."
Do you hear John say, "We sin all the time"? Brother John says:
"He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked" (1 John 2:4-6 MKJV).
You say, "They didn't have cars then!" The difference is not in the times, people, places or any circumstances but in you.
Ah, you people are so confounded by the harlot, Mystery, that great and beautiful woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and you fornicate with her, so glad to have her praise and glory!
"Still, however, even out of the rulers, many did believe on Him. But because of the Pharisees they did not confess, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God" (John 12:42-43 MKJV).
Read Mystery.
Ironically, there is that which you call sin that is not sin.
By these abilities, we learn to read, write, and do arithmetic. By these we drive a car, punch a keyboard, eat, drink, laugh, and cry. Not knowing two worlds, those reading this correspondence and fighting us with their carnal minds will not understand the legitimacy of each in its place.
I see with the carnal eye (after the appearance) and I see with the spiritual eye (that which is hidden to the carnal eye). I understand with the carnal mind (outer man) and I understand in the inner man, having the mind of Christ.
The physical body, by the way, is not the sinning factor or source - it is "caught in-between." Consider that a man does not change in his nature one whit by having his legs amputated, tongue cut or eyes gouged out. He is as much a sinner as ever because the "sinful nature" is one of spirit and not of physicality, not contained, increased or diminished in physical portions.
Napoleon (a man of very small physical stature) can be just as "bad" as Goliath. Those who shave their heads and go on a diet are not necessarily better off spiritually. Ascetics get nowhere. The body is simply a medium, an instrument, as a gun in a terrorist's hand or scapel in a doctor's hand, which instruments can be used for good or for evil, even as Paul said:
"Do not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but yield yourselves to God, as one alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be! Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness" (Romans 6:13-16 MKJV).
I may look at a man and see a well-groomed, amiable fellow. Instinctively (still from the power of the carnal man), I can sense that he is not as nice as he seems to be. I can sense that he is playing, plotting, or placating. Spiritually, we see and hear nothing but what God permits/gives us to see or hear or know. Yet that inner man in Christ knows all, says John, and I believe it, not only because the Word of God declares it, but also because, since I received the Spirit in 1975 (which Baptists and most other evangelical people said, and still say, was not a valid, spiritual experience of God), I began to see, hear and comprehend the things of God, which were impossible and hidden to me theretofore (and certainly hidden to them).
"But as it is written, 'Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,' nor has it entered into the heart of man, 'the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.' But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God" (1 Corinthians 2:9-10 MKJV).
This new life was in spite of the fact that my life had changed nearly two years prior, and the Bible had become a brand new and amazing book to me when I was first converted to Christ. However, upon receiving the Spirit of God, my life entered a new and different dimension for a second time.
The following verse people claim as a result of "accepting Christ":
"For also by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13 MKJV).
This does not happen when someone "asks Jesus to come into his heart," and he simply "accepts it" regardless of reality. That is a lie. Read the Diabolical Doctrine 1) "Accept Jesus as your personal Saviour and you will be saved."
Also read The False and Misleading Gospel of "Accepting" Jesus Christ.
You and those who have written us have not seen and heard the things of God. You have man's definitions, concepts, knowledge, doctrines, beliefs, programming, and religious instruction, but not the revelation by the Spirit of God, though you might think so, not having the life with which to compare.
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
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