A very close friend of mine just lost a very close friend of his - a young man in the prime of his life and ministry who was reaching people with the good news of God's grace. It's really hard to deal with and it reminds me of the story of Kyle Lake - the young Waco pastor who was electrocuted in his baptistry two years ago.In discussing these events, another friend of mine sent me a link to a website called "The Path of Truth" which included an article about Kyle Lake that I've quoted below. I really don't know why I'm taking the time to refute this guy. Heaven knows I'd have my hands full if I decided to debate every quack that has a website. But I guess just because of what my friend is going through, this one really got me hot under the theological collar.
The guy's name is Paul Cohen and his basic assertion is that if you're walking in the fear of the Lord, then nothing bad will ever happen to you. It's clearly a well-constructed argument with plenty of scripture, church history and gray matter to back it up. Below is a quote from a pretty long article on his site and then a short rant from me. :)
What Jesus said, and what He is saying for those with ears to hear, is that God is over all events, and if you are walking in the fear, or reverence, of Him, you can trust Him entirely. Indeed, it is your duty to entrust yourself to Him. If however, you are walking in the fear of man, which is denying Christ before men, then Christ will also deny you before the Father in Heaven. Then you will be subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm that are your inheritance from "the Fall"Gosh, how this makes me crazy! Let us count the ways...
First, he mishandles scripture. The verse he quotes in this article (Mtt. 10:29) doesn't say that the Lord causes the fall of every sparrow that falls to the ground. It says no sparrow falls to the ground apart from the will of the Lord. Thinking people understand the distinction.
Second, I guess what Cohen is saying is that Kyle Lake - a pastor, whose career and passion was declaring the truth and teaching the word of God - was denying Christ before men. I guess that's what he was doing in the baptistry that day - denying Christ. I guess that's how people's lives were touched by his ministry of denying Christ. I guess that's why he stood in a pulpit and spoke publicly and led a church - because it was a good way to deny Christ.
According to Cohen (and I really don't even have to extend his logic to this conclusion; he actually asserts this himself), if we are walking in fear and reverence for God, then nothing bad will happen to us - least of all death! I can think of quite a few Christian leaders who would disagree with that position. The short list would include Joseph, Daniel, Job, Jesus, Paul, Peter, Polycarp, Bonhoeffer, Cassie Bernall, and a brother from Gaza named Rami who was kidnapped and killed Saturday night because of his faith. According to Cohen, these people were killed because the Son had denied them to the Father. Maybe I should find Cohen's address, vandalize his house, and then stand in the front yard and declare, "Sorry, Paul. Guess you weren't walking in the fear of the Lord."
But even if his assertion weren't patently wrong, it would still miss the point. That is that God doesn't save us from bad things - including death. He never promised to. In fact, he promised just the opposite. ("In this world, you will have trouble.") If Paul Cohen is trusting Jesus to save him from death or accidents or difficult circumstances, I'm afraid he's in for disappointment. As for me, I'm not trusting God to keep hardship from coming my way. In fact, I'm trusting him to send hardship in my life so that I can know him more. Like Paul said, "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings."
There's plenty more fuzzy-headed stuff on "The Path of Truth" to rant about, but I'll quit for now. Partly because I want this post to be about upholding the truth and correcting it in a brother and - to be honest - I'm getting way too much pleasure out of bashing this guy.
Anyway, I've emailed the guy and invited him to discuss his position on this blog (his website doesn't allow for feedback/comments). We'll see...
49 comments:
{ears hot and red}
{sigh}
{pray for the Lord to calm me}
post...
Paul sure seems to be zealous for God. That's good. That's real good. We need more of that. But I'm afraid I can't separate the zealousness from the stupidity. That means any great intention on Paul's part is lost...at least on me.
Paul begins his very post by saying that he never knew Kyle Lake. Then he proceeds to assert that Kyle "based his life" on a lie from hell. That's funny. Usually you need to know someone to be able to make such a claim. Since I don't know anywhere that Kyle put ink to paper to claim such a statement I'm pretty sure Paul doesn't know either.
So, Paul, you've lost all credibility with me by paragraph two! Looks like the only lie from hell on Paul's link is Paul's public declaration that Kyle "based his life" on any one single statement.
Like Paul, I also never knew Kyle but I did read his books. By keeping Kyle's writing IN context with the entirety of his writings I'm pretty sure that he would never have based his life on a lie from hell. Rather, from everything I've read of Kyle's I'm pretty sure he would be first in line to bow at the foot of Christ and assign all glory and majesty to the One who created life. I'm pretty sure he'd be quick to recognize that God is in control of everything at all times. I'm pretty sure that Kyle would be quick to repent of his sins (which Paul claims Kyle must not have done since Kyle was "accidentally" killed). I'm pretty sure that Kyle intended no disrespect or intent to test God when he delivered his sermon entitled "Surpise me, God!". Instead, I'm pretty sure Kyle looked forward in expectation and excitement to what God can and would do...not as a challenge but in anticipation of God's good pleasing and perfect will.
Like I said, I never knew Kyle and I don't know Paul. But there's one more thing of which I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that Paul better never get too close to me because I might try to kick him in his spiritual crotch but then "accidentally" miss and hit him in his physical crotch!
Genius.
Um...Bob...where exactly is one's "spiritual crotch"?
Ryan,
A debate is fine by us, even desirable, but first you must read the materials, and then accurately quote them to prove your assertions. You have apparently done neither. You are not correct in what I have said, only stating what you think or wish I had. Therefore, you are not arguing with me, but with the emotional and erroneous conclusions you have formed by your carnal thinking and being. You are fighting yourself.
For example, I never said, “If you're walking in the fear of the Lord, then nothing bad will ever happen to you.” Those are your words. What I did say was as quoted, that if you walk with the Lord you can know and be fully assured that all things are in His hands and nothing can happen to you except He approves and desires it. Isn’t that what Jesus said of the “very bad” thing that happened to Him?
“Then Pilate said to Him, Do You not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to crucify You, and I have authority to release You? Jesus answered, You could have no authority against Me unless it were given to you from above. Therefore he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin” (John 19:10-11 MKJV).
Of course, we, those who believe, know this was not a very bad thing after all, but the very best thing that has ever happened, because by His sacrifice, Christ was glorified and exalted at the right hand of God, putting away our sins and the sins of the world, and through His resurrection He has brought us eternal life, which is total victory over this world and the devil. So what is good and what is bad? Do bad things happen to those who believe? The Scriptures give a fuller, more truthful account:
“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28 MKJV).
Job, called a righteous man by God, had many horrific things happen to him, and within one day his world was turned on its head. God Himself brought up the matter of Job to the devil and sent him to do these things. Did it work out for good? Immeasurably so. It is all there in the book for you to read and confirm, if you question it. Job was given as an extreme physical example of what every saint of God can expect to have happen in his or her world:
“In the same way, concluded Jesus, none of you can be My disciple unless you give up everything you have” (Luke 14:33 GNB).
And:
“For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives” (Hebrews 12:6 MKJV).
What God teaches in the Scriptures is that everything happens with purpose, initiated and orchestrated by Him, to ultimately bring about good. Kyle Lake denied this (I have extensively quoted his words), and taught others to believe in chance and vanity rather than the Almighty Lord God, even selling them his teachings, contrary to the Word of God. He did all of this because he was walking according to the spirit of this world, the liar. He suffered accordingly. That too is working out for good, as has been necessary, not only for Kyle, but for others, such as you, for the judgment that will put away the presumptuous and light spirit in which you are all walking, taking the Name of the Lord in vain and bringing destruction and desolation on your heads.
As I quoted in the writing you denounce, the Lord told everyone that unless they repented, they too would perish as those who died in the incidents of the tower of Siloam and Herod’s sacrifice. They would, so to speak, be electrocuted in their baptisteries. Obviously Lake had not repented, not according to Paul Cohen, but according to the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Anyone who says differently has an argument with Him and is defying His sovereignty as Lord God Almighty.
Peter and Paul did not die in “accidents” as unrepentant fools. They were martyred for their witness to Christ, killed by those incensed at their testimony, just as you and Bob express the desire to do me harm because of my testimony of Christ. Do you fellows really believe your inclinations and attitudes are of Christ? Yes, you do, as He said you would:
“They will excommunicate you; but a time is coming when everyone who kills you will think that he is offering God a service” (John 16:2 EMTV).
The blood of the martyrs still testifies of Christ, because it is His blood. Stephen gave witness of Christ, and saw Him at the right hand of God, forgiving his murderers, among them the future apostle Paul. His testimony was not in vain. A very great thing happened that day.
What happened when Kyle Lake died was a testimony to the lethalness of false religion. That is to what Lake gave testimony, not Christ (though he did it in Christ’s Name), and it killed him. It was a great wake up call to everyone to beware of playing games with God (see Victor’s letter to Esau at http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/whathappenedtokylelake.htm). If you do not repent, you will all likewise perish, as with your friend’s friend “in ministry,” who died not as a martyr for God’s glory, but as a mongrel to man’s shame.
You are very ignorant, Ryan, and I say that as a fact, not as unsubstantiated slander as you do with us. You think that because someone gets up in a church and says things about God and quotes the words of Jesus it must be wholesome and godly. I quote:
“Second, I guess what Cohen is saying is that Kyle Lake - a pastor, whose career and passion was declaring the truth and teaching the word of God - was denying Christ before men. I guess that's what he was doing in the baptistry that day - denying Christ. I guess that's how people's lives were touched by his ministry of denying Christ. I guess that's why he stood in a pulpit and spoke publicly and led a church - because it was a good way to deny Christ.”
Have you not heard that Satan comes as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:4)? Have you not heard that God sends men this strong delusion to weed out those that have not received a love of the truth? Have you not heard that this deceivableness causes them to perish (2 Thessalonians 2)? Have you not heard that there must be heresies among the saints, so that those that are approved might be made manifest (1 Corinthians 11:19)? Have you not heard the many words of the Lord that He spoke against the religious hypocrites of His day? Have you not heard His reference to the words of Isaiah, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Mark 7:6 MKJV)? Have you not heard the testimony of the Word of God, that the people in the wilderness sacrificed to the Lord in the name of their gods, and suffered because of this (Acts 7:42-43)? Have you not seen the great confusion and contradiction of the many religious sects and groups that claim to be representing Christ? Are you telling us you accept any and all that name the Name of Christ?
Lake, as we have shown, was not declaring the Truth or teaching the Word of God, as you say. He preached “another Jesus.”
And by your stance you do indeed sanction all religious, the very same that have been the known murderers and plunderers of mankind (the Catholic Church, Church of England, Lutheran Church, etc.). That is no wonder, as you and Bob exhibit the same vicious spirit, as I have already pointed out. You are all one:
“He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters” (Matthew 12:30 EMTV).
Are we “quacks,” or are you in false religion, the whore, to which the true worship of God is deemed “quackery”? Read The True Marks of a Cult (http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/truemarkscult.htm) and you tell us who God says is in error and is following men, the paths of the destroyer.
You may publish this on your blog, or any other. We will certainly publish it on our site, in the Kyle Lake section.
Serving the Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom I thankfully identify by His grace, Who always suffers the contradiction of sinners and prevails in His judgment,
Paul Cohen
www.thepathoftruth.com
Ryan, Victor here,
We are thankful for this opportunity the Lord has granted us.
You speak of having a “theological collar.” That is your problem. You serve carnal concepts of Christ, laboring under men’s collars and “get hot” rather than taking upon yourself Christ’s yoke, which is easy, and which alone gives rest and peace (Matthew 11:28-29). Carnal concepts are at enmity with the One you presume to serve (Romans 8:6-8). You do not have the peace of Christ that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7). You like to think you are somebody, and so you glory in yourself rather than in the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:31). Speaking of such as you:
“Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matthew 22:29 MKJV).
(I do not expect you to access the Scripture references I include here – only those with a thirst for truth and hunger for righteousness will do so; it is for their sakes that I include them.)
You say, “I'm trusting him [God] to send hardship in my life so that I can know him more.”
You have spoken and so will it be, even as it was with Kyle Lake. You are also in for a surprise, as was he. What you receive will not be the sufferings the apostle Paul spoke of or received for righteousness’ sake, but you will receive the suffering for unrighteousness’ sake – very different (one brings life, the other death):
“For the grief according to God works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted, but the grief of the world works out death” (2 Corinthians 7:10 MKJV).
Nevertheless, those things you suffer will ultimately stop your mouth and put away your self-confessed ranting, which is defined as “pompous or pretentious, declamatory, ostentatiously lofty in style [and spirit].” And that is good.
We constantly marvel at the vicious spirits that rant in the Lord’s Name at our words because we speak the truth that offends those who choose to believe lies and to walk in them. However, we are thankful for every opportunity to still the mouths of blasphemers and showoffs like you, who have confidence in the flesh (Philippians 3:3-4) and love the praise of men more than God’s praise (John 12:43). God sees through your flatteries and self-appointed stances as “defenders of the faith,” and He is not impressed.
We are at His throne in Him and see as He sees, and we unapologetically (you will say “arrogantly”) declare to you what He speaks.
Post it all, Ryan, as you have proposed. Let all see your nakedness, if you will; it will be good for you (the proud must fall – Proverbs 16:18) and good for all (“that all may fear” – Acts 5:11). We certainly will be posting it (in that way, our site certainly does “allow for feedback/comments,” as anyone can easily see) – every word, yours and ours, Lord willing, and perhaps also those of your friends, who are foolish enough to weigh in with your ignorance, as though they know anything.
But would it not be good if you acknowledged ignorance and irresponsibility, and repented of ranting and false accusation of Christ’s brethren (Revelation 12:10)? Would you not prefer that God called you “Repentant Ryan,” rather than your accurately calling yourself “Ranting Ryan”?
Knowing Jesus Christ, Lord of all, as He is, and not as the proud and wicked vainly make Him out to be, convincing the ungodly, according to the Scriptures (Jude 1:14-15),
Victor Hafichuk
www.thepathoftruth.com
I could not get a hyperlink into our comments, nor would the entire link wrap around or copy, so if anyone wishes to be informed of the full story, the two articles I cite in my letter are located in the "Falsehood Exposed" section of "The Path of Truth" website. If you have trouble finding these, contact me and I will email you the hyperlinks.
Paul and Victor,
I really don't even know where to begin. I'm not even sure that I want to. Maybe it's because I am a mongrel...or maybe it's because you guys like to take words and scripture and then apply your interpretation as though you have written it yourself. Guys like you think you are gods quoting scripture and then errantly spouting off as though you are spokesmen of the One True God.
Now, Victor, you brought up repentance. I'm all about repentance so I want to start there. While I was angered because of your flippant judgment on Kyle I realize that in no way does that give me the excuse to lose my cool and threaten to "harm" you. For the record, I actually never intended to commit such an action if the tone of jest was missed. However, I apologize for making such a statement on the fly without really knowing either of you. Furthermore, I also recognize that I am not God and therefore don't get to judge your eternal destiny (unlike you have of me). As such, I will lay my bitterness at the feet of my Lord and ask forgiveness prior to continuing this post…
So, guys, let’s get back to this for a bit.
I think there are a few things that need to be said.
1. I guess it’s okay to call people names and to lose your self control. I guess you feel like the best way to make your point is to call us “mongrels” and “fools.” I guess you do that because you are really hoping to entice us to fall into the trap of doing the same. I can’t say that it’s not tempting, but I am going to try to avoid stooping to your level and it may benefit you to check scripture regarding the loss of self control (and please don’t try to compare yourselves to Christ at the changing tables – your name calling is hardly righteous). Yet, this brings me to another thing.
2. While we’re on the subject of tagging people with descriptions (and seeing as how you guys have cornered the market on deciding the eternal destiny of people - people you’ve never met), I wonder if Christ were here who he’d call the “brood of vipers.” You guys are the most judgmental, self-righteous, modern day pharisaical legalists of which I am aware. When you say things like “we, those who believe” you clearly indicate that you are believing but that Ryan and I are UNbelieving. You have judged my heart. I’m guessing, Victor, that’s because you “see as He sees.” Oh WOW! Now you claim to have the mind of God! Yet, you are but just a man and you know nothing about me. Nothing. I’ve tipped my hand to you only that you know I struggle with anger. That’s all. As far as I know Christ is the only One who will judge me for my anger or otherwise. Good luck finding scripture to refute that (Oh, yes, I’m sure that you’ll point to Paul driving out demons and with delusion think that you are doing the same). So, thanks for your input, but you’re way off base and quite past the point of flirting with heresy yourself in that way.
3. Which brings me to the third point…that apparently I have to reiterate. You both conveniently glossed over what I had written about you not knowing Kyle Lake. You don’t know Kyle any better than you know me. Paul, you said it yourself. Then you said, and I quote,
“What God teaches in the Scriptures is that everything happens with purpose, initiated and orchestrated by Him, to ultimately bring about good. Kyle Lake denied this…”.
No he didn’t! Read his writings (you will have to since you never took the time to know him)!!! You haven’t extensively done anything pertaining to Kyle except wrongly condemn a follower of Christ that impacted the lives of many for the positive. Kyle says,
“I believe tragedy, chaos, and disease are the natural consequences of the fall when humankind was given free choice.”
Surely you guys don’t debate this point. Surely you understand that before the fall everything was as God intended it to be. Surely you understand that the fall brought tragedy, chaos, and disease into the world. See Genesis 1 if you need more detail, but from your prior record of scripture reference I’m guessing you don’t need to look this up. Kyle goes on,
“Yet, no matter who you are or where your theology stands, all people who strive to thoughtfully deal with God and life are forced to live within the tension of God’s providence and a chaotic world. Still, no matter where you stand on the issue, Romans 8:28 still proves to be a redemptive passage:…”.
Wow! What a heretical declaration! A “redemptive passage”! Yes, it seems Kyle is denying Christ here and claiming to be a god himself. No! Since you guys aren’t able to discern sarcasm or joking, let me tell you what I’m truly saying. Kyle is NOT speaking heresy here. How could a thinking person even arrive at this? Kyle is not being dogmatic. He never said his interpretation of scripture is right…or wrong. Kyle is not making any statements that elevate him above God. Kyle isn’t denying Christ in any shape or form. He is simply saying that it seems the fall of man is the cause of the hardship, destruction, and carnage we see in the world to this day. He NEVER says God is not in control, nor does he allude to this. Kyle would absolutely proclaim God to be in control of EVERYTHING. If you read his writings then you would know this. Although, since the ability to judge the hearts of man seems to be your forte, you probably wouldn’t need to do any investigation (oh yeah, beware the sarcasm in this last sentence). Kyle doesn’t deny or contradict scripture…he only contradicts the unforgiving interpretation of self-righteous vipers.
4. Speaking of scripture, I honestly do appreciate your use of scripture (although it’s much more helpful when it actually pertains to the point you are trying to make). Seriously (no sarcasm here), it’s refreshing to see people base their arguments on scripture. I think that is admirable. However, when you spin and turn and use scripture out of context you can make it say just about anything. I don’t think Kyle ever intended to intentionally do this and for the record I don’t think that he ever did this (oh yes, I’m sure that you’ve already judged me for saying that).
5. Lastly, your purpose for judging and lambasting Kyle, Ryan, and myself is clearly intended for the glorification of self and not the glory of the Lord. You seek you prove how righteous YOU are, and how judgmental YOU can be. You don’t seek to bring about the glory of God. I’ve had to stop and pray many times that this post would be about upholding truth rather than me “showing you up.” When I read what you guys write I feel the exclusivity that you guys intend to portray on the grace of God. I’m convinced you don’t even want me or any other person to ever repent so that you can “keep the faith” for yourself. The diction, tone, and methods of delivery that you guys employ are ones which seek to demonstrate the “knowledge” that you have amassed, not the TRUTH or LOVE of Christ. Men who seek to meekly rebuke and instruct operate in a much different way than you guys operate. Christ always sought to deliver His message in love. Obviously you gave no thought to what Kyle’s wife would think were she to waywardly land on your “Path of Destruction” site. You clearly don’t care what an unbeliever would think were they to land on your site. They would never understand why you, who claim to be believing, would publicly trash the work of another believer. Many people knew Kyle and can attest to his heart (even though you guys seem to have the market of knowing hearts cornered). Thankfully, the Holy Spirit operates in a much more efficient way, which always points to Christ and never to man…or even self. If you guys really believed that Kyle’s teaching was blatantly wrong and wanted to clarify then you would have done so in a much different manner. You would have gone to Kyle in private or even entered into a more constructive manner of refute. You operate under the guise of righteousness, but everything that I read from you betrays you for your hearts full of hate, bitterness, and thirst for self. I will pray for you guys…though I’m sure you’ll attest that I need not spend the energy. Don’t bother. I’m committing to praying you guys because:
6. If you guys spent as much time and effort genuinely spreading the gospel and seeking lost souls as you do tearing down and bringing destruction to the brothers of Christ then this world would be a different place. Unfortunately you’ll site my insolence and deftness and parade around like your banter with me is such work. It is not. It is not. It is not. I will pray for you guys. I commit to this. Not for my own glory, but for the Lord’s. I will pray that the Holy Spirit pierces your hearts. If you are true believers then this will happen. If not, you’ll just refute everything that I have written here, distort scripture to help you do so, and continue the destruction that we see in the world that has been given to Satan. Thankfully, no matter what you guys decide, Christ wins. That’s because “[I] know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to His purpose” – Hebrews 8:28.
Forgive me for not reading all the commentary, but I have a problem with this quote, which I copied out of Paul’s comment.
"if you walk with the Lord you can know and be fully assured that all things are in His hands and nothing can happen to you except He approves and desires it."
So... does that mean that God desired the 9/11 tragedy and approved of it or that absolutely no one killed on that day was "walking with the Lord?" Or did the Lord desire those specific murders? Does "walking with the Lord" make us immune to the free will and sinful nature of all other human beings?
And about accidental death...
Words of Jesus, "unless you repent, you too will perish." Luke 13:5
Paul Cohen's interpretation: all accidental death is caused by a lack of repentance. If the 18 in Luke chapter 13 died accidentally, it must be so of all in history.
Wow Paul, what a stretch. Ryan is certainly not denouncing this scripture. The Word of God is quite clear throughout that sin and failure to repent causes "death," meaning separation from God, failure to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, not necessarily physical death. Ryan is only denouncing your absurd interpretation of the words of Jesus.
I don't remember reading, "the wages of sin is accdidental physical death."
One more thing.
I'm pretty sure Jesus meant, "repent and avoid an eternity of fiery hell and most importantly an eternity apart from Me, the Lord." Not so much, "repent and avoid being hit in the head by a tower, or repent and avoid being electrocuted, or repent and avoid a head-on collision with a Mack truck."
Ok, just catching up on our debate here. I think it’s going pretty well, though the whole thing is starting to give me tired head. Bob, I hope you’re not to upset by all this. I appreciate your heart. Nancy, you crack me up. :)
I made notes as I read the posts, so let me share them with you and then, maybe, we’ll either move closer to reconciliation here, or maybe we should just drop the whole thing.
Cohen’s quote that seems to be most problematic is this one:
“if you walk with the Lord you can know and be fully assured that all things are in His hands and nothing can happen to you except He approves and desires it.” And this one, “What God teaches in the Scriptures is that everything happens with purpose, initiated and orchestrated by Him.”
Paul, can I infer from that that you believe that nothing happens which God doesn’t desire to happen? Please consider the logical ramifications of your answer. If that is so, then the Lord caused the Nazi Holocaust because he desired it. The Lord caused the Israelites to make a golden calf and worship it because he desired it (and He didn’t really mean all that stuff about being a jealous God). September 11, 2001 happened because God desired it. And the countless times that the Lord pleaded with his people through his prophets and yet they turned away in disobedience – those all happened because the Lord desired them. He desired for people to blaspheme and reject him and commit horrific sins. Is this your argument?
I think your confusion comes from your desire to separate “everything that happens” from acts committed by people. In fact, I think much of our disagreement could be resolved if we agreed on the definition of “chance”. Let me explain and see if we can reach some common ground…
I doubt that you would agree with the paragraph above (that God desired and caused people to torture others Nazi death camps, etc.) because you see those things as the result of the acts of sinful man. Clearly, you would agree, God desires us all to live righteous lives in accordance with his laws and character. He does not desire that we treat him or his children with contempt. Thus, he did not desire that Hitler and his men sin. He did not desire that the September 11 terrorists break one of the 10 Commandments.
But on the other hand, you see a loose wire in a baptistery as not being the direct result of the actions of carnal man. Since you believe there are no “accidents”, there is only the will of God obeyed or rejected by the will of man. Therefore, if no person malevolently devised to murder Kyle Lake by electrifying his baptistery, then it must have been God. Am I following your logic correctly?
Here’s where we disagree: I think the acts of sinful man lead to something we call chance. By chance I don’t mean something that is out of the knowledge or control of God. No such thing exists. God knows and even allows all things to happen. But he doesn’t cause all things to happen. If he did, why would he command us to do anything? We would have no choice in the matter! In fact, why would you argue with me? After all, I didn’t choose to hold these opinions. If God causes all things to happen, then he caused me to draw, as you say, “emotional and erroneous conclusions” from my “carnal thinking and being.” Why argue with me? God has caused me to think this way, and to email you, and to post these comments. Thus, you’re not even arguing with me. You’re arguing with God!
You see the end of your logic? If carried to its conclusion, then we are all pawns without the ability or the responsibility to obey the very commands God gave us. Not even Calvin took his argument that far.
If, however, we don’t gorge ourselves on the idea of predestination, and consider God’s character in the scriptures and in our lives, we see that he deals with us as I deal with my children – instructing them, correcting them, but also allowing them to make their own mistakes. And those mistakes lead to problems, complications, chance.
If I am walking past a street corner and drop a banana peel, and then someone walks by a few minutes later and slips on the peel and falls, and someone driving past the corner at that instant sees the pedestrian fall and gets distracted for a moment and drives into another car causing an accident, then who caused the accident? Who is at fault for the accident? Me? The person who slipped? The driver who was distracted? God? Or was it an accident at all? Did one of us – me, the pedestrian, the driver or God – intend to cause a wreck? Could we not just take all the circumstances in which thousands of small decisions by fallen people combine to create happenstance and call them chance? That is the definition most of the world – Christians included – use. I think it would help if we could agree on that definition.
I also think it’s presumptuous for you to claim that you know when God acts in judgment on someone (eg Kyle Lake ) and when someone dies at the hand of sinful man (eg Christian martyrs.) Could not God have been angry with Polycarp and called down judgment on him and we have only mistaken it for martyrdom? Who are we to say? You called Kyle Lake an “unrepentant fool” but how do you know the stuff of Kyle’s heart? How do you know that he was unrepentant? The answer is that you don’t. No one – not his wife or friends of church members – only God knew that. You presume to know, but you don’t know. Would that you had the humility to leave some judgment to the Righteous Judge – to say that you don’t know why Kyle Lake died, or why anyone dies, but that you simply trust Jesus like a child and believe that he is incomprehensibly just and gracious. Bob has emphasized this point pretty clearly so I think you get the idea and I won’t harp on it any more. For you to presume to know the mind of God beyond that which is revealed in scripture is arrogant and asinine. And I wish you would stop.
So moving on, here’s another quote from your post:
“Have you not heard the many words of the Lord that He spoke against the religious hypocrites of His day? Have you not heard His reference to the words of Isaiah, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Mark 7:6 MKJV)? Have you not heard the testimony of the Word of God, that the people in the wilderness sacrificed to the Lord in the name of their gods, and suffered because of this (Acts 7:42-43)? Have you not seen the great confusion and contradiction of the many religious sects and groups that claim to be representing Christ?”
Let me answer your “have you not heards” with another: Have you not considered that you could be the very apostate that you decry? If one of the two of us must be a heretic, could it not be the one who presumes to know the mind of God in conflict with two thousand years of study, teaching and illumination from the greatest followers of Jesus? You realize that you’re a pioneer here, right? That the greatest teachers of the church, including Paul the Apostle, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Lewis, Spurgeon, Brother Lawrence, Billy Graham – they all disagree with you. You have attained a level of elucidation beyond that of popes and desert fathers, above that of every martyr and priest and monk and evangelist in the history of the church. Is this your argument?
Another quote:
“And by your stance you do indeed sanction all religious, the very same that have been the known murderers and plunderers of mankind (the Catholic Church, Church of England, Lutheran Church, etc.).”
Again, this is fuzzy logic, Paul. Please think these things through! Surely you can see that because there have been murderers among the members of the Lutheran Church, that does not prove false the teachings of the Lutheran Church. Please tell me you understand this! And if not, please tell me what church you attend where all the members are sinless! Every church in history has been full of murderers and adulterers and heretics. That is the whole point! We are all sinners! We all need a savior who is stronger and wiser than we. I hope you’ll gain the humility to admit that.
And now a word from Victor:
“You say, “I'm trusting him [God] to send hardship in my life so that I can know him more.”
You have spoken and so will it be, even as it was with Kyle Lake. You are also in for a surprise, as was he. What you receive will not be the sufferings the apostle Paul spoke of or received for righteousness’ sake, but you will receive the suffering for unrighteousness’ sake – very different (one brings life, the other death)”
Thank you, Victor, for reminding me of God’s grace. For every day that passes in which I am not electrocuted in a baptistery, I will count another day given me by the immeasurable grace of my Father and another day that He has chosen to ignore your counsel.
Bob,
Regarding your first posting:
We are spokesmen of the One True God.
Nothing you have said proves otherwise, nor could it; you have only given us your opinion. Do you think opinions matter to God? See The Truth of God Is Not an Opinion and Opinion.
As for your eternal destiny, you are just as mistaken there as you are about everything else we have written. Go read the materials in The Restitution of All Things section, and see what we have to say about the final destiny of all men according to the glorious gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom we preach.
Also, He will not forgive you until you acknowledge Him in us, and acknowledge that you are yet offending Him by vaunting yourself against us. He does not hear your prayers or confessions while you so readily disdain and mock Him.
Now I will reply to your second posting, in which I will not need to say some things because I have just covered them in my first response:
The things we have said about you and others mentioned in our letters is not the result of losing "self control." We speak soberly, dispassionately, and accurately by the Spirit of God. We are speaking Biblically, that is, in harmony with the definitions the Bible gives for such things as fools and dogs, and, as the dictionary further defines, mongrels are "of mixed kinds." You are taking and mixing the holy with carnal reasonings, men's doctrines, and all kinds of foolishness, the fruits of unbelief. Having been delivered from our own foolishnesses we know the difference between faith and unbelief, particularly the unbelief that claims to believe, which is what you, Ryan, and Kyle Lake have all manifested. Why should we apologize for what we know and see from God?
But you have no self-control over your tongue, as the apostle James relates in Scripture:
"And the tongue is like a fire. It is a world of wrong, occupying its place in our bodies and spreading evil through our whole being. It sets on fire the entire course of our existence with the fire that comes to it from hell itself" (James 3:6 GNB).
You ridicule us for exercising righteous judgment, mocking such a thing as if it does not exist:
"You have judged my heart. I'm guessing, Victor, that's because you 'see as He sees.' Oh WOW! Now you claim to have the mind of God!"
The Scriptures in no uncertain terms speak of those having the faith of Christ as also having His mind (1 Corinthians 2:16). Yet you, in all hypocrisy, contrary to your derisive dismissal of all judgment, continuously unload unrighteous judgments on us, such as:
"...stooping to your level...."
"...self-righteous vipers...."
"You guys are the most judgmental, self-righteous, modern day pharisaical legalists of which I am aware."
You mock us for the very notion of discerning your hearts, as if such a thing is blasphemy, and then proceed to do the same with us:
"You seek you prove how righteous YOU are, and how judgmental YOU can be. You don't seek to bring about the glory of God."
"You operate under the guise of righteousness...."
"...everything that I read from you betrays you for your hearts full of hate, bitterness, and thirst for self."
You are a liar and hypocrite, Bob, false accuser of the brethren. I state that as a fact, providing the evidence, unlike you, who has none, because there is none to back up your accusations.
I never said I did not know Kyle Lake. What I said was that I had something to say because I know Jesus Christ. Because I know Christ, the Savior of all men, I do know Kyle Lake. Yes, I know him after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, but this is the only way to truly know anyone (2 Corinthians 5:16). From this place I reported what the Lord had shown me and has given me to say about what happened to Kyle. I also said I was not speaking against Kyle, but against the lie that destroyed him. Those professing Christ who deny that such things come from God are unbelieving fools, let the chips fall where they may. Some will hear the truth and turn from vain philosophies and speculative knowledge to the Lord.
You quote me, "What God teaches in the Scriptures is that everything happens with purpose, initiated and orchestrated by Him, to ultimately bring about good. Kyle Lake denied this...." and you comment, "No he didn't! Read his writings (you will have to since you never took the time to know him)!!!"
I did read Kyle's writings, and he did deny God was doing everything, both good and evil, quite emphatically. I even quoted his words:
"There are many, many intelligent people who firmly believe that God does in fact cause all things to happen in today's world, even tragic situations. And they haven't come to this conclusion flippantly. Many believe this to be true after diligent study of the Scriptures. However, that is not my belief."
Obviously you are the one who needs to read his writings more carefully, as well as mine. You are not accurately reporting what Kyle Lake or I have said. Concerning the things of God, you are irresponsible, preferring to promote your own thoughts, which are erroneous, rather than God's, which are life giving and are those we communicate.
Here is another quote from Kyle regarding Romans 8:28. He quotes a portion of the Scripture ("We know that all things work together for good...") and poses a question he answers definitively:
"...does this statement mean that God is currently causing all things that happen in the world? No."
Can his denial get any clearer than that? Kyle sums up Romans 8:28 with the following interpretation:
"Disappointment, failure, and suffering are simply facts of life. But for those who are actively following God, He can turn disappointment and tragedy into new life."
So how does God turn the disappointment of Kyle's untimely death into new life? I mean for Kyle. Can anyone here see and admit that such an interpretation is ludicrous?
Here is the real interpretation of the verse:
"We and all those that love God and are called according to His purpose know that He works all things together for good."
Now that is redemptive. Kyle's version is predicated on man's righteousness. If men are not righteous, they will never see good. The Bible teaches that no man is righteous, so by Kyle's gospel, neither could any man ever expect to see good. Some hope! With hope like that, who needs despair?
Kyle's philosophy is antiChrist. You quote him:
"...all people who strive to thoughtfully deal with God and life are forced to live within the tension of God's providence and a chaotic world."
The salvation of mankind, by this measure, was left to mere chance. Had Christ been pushed off the cliff, or hit by a lightening bolt, or run over by a cart, or had a wall fall on Him, we would all be "sorry, out of luck." But, of course, his theory is wrong, all wrong. Why? Because, while Kyle was certainly a likable fellow, intelligent and thoughtful to some, he was not a servant of God, as were Peter and Paul. He was not sent by God to minister salvation to his hearers. That is why he even admittedly spoke of his beliefs and opinions, and could not report what the Lord spoke to him because he did not hear the Lord's voice, which all true men of God do. He did not know the Lord Jesus Christ, the Truth, and therefore could not preach THE TRUTH.
You speak of this as if it were a virtue, so confused and turned around you are in your religious spirit:
"Kyle is not being dogmatic. He never said his interpretation of scripture is right...or wrong. Kyle is not making any statements that elevate him above God."
Isn't having an opinion contrary to God, and promoting it, even going so far as to sell it to men, elevating yourself above God? Certainly it is. But the simple, blind, ignorant, and wicked do not know this; therefore we are sent to declare it, and religious hypocrites hate us for it, just as the Lord said it would be:
"It is enough for the disciple that he is like his master, and the servant like his lord. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more those of His household?" (Matthew 10:25 MKJV)
You say, as if it exonerates Kyle, that he never intentionally intended to take Scripture out of context. I never said he did. Neither did the slayers of Christ think to intentionally kill the Son of God, but they did. What Kyle intended is not the issue, but what he did, and what happened to him as a result.
You write:
"I'm convinced you don't even want me or any other person to ever repent so that you can 'keep the faith' for yourself."
You say it is impossible to know another's heart, yet you continually judge ours wrongfully. This is wickedness and more hypocrisy, Bob. We speak so that you might repent. You certainly cannot resist what we say, so what other conclusion can there ultimately be?
Yes we are tearing down, not the brethren of Christ, but as prophesied:
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him" (Jude 1:14-15 EMTV).
Destroying the world is your work, as one who follows the prince of this world, the liar and accuser of the brethren. We are here to notify everyone that the time to be humbled and to turn from your destructive ways is now, or be turned into powder as promised:
"Whoever shall fall on that Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Luke 20:18 MKJV).
Paul
Bob, Victor here,
I will add:
You write: "Now you claim to have the mind of God! Yet, you are but just a man and you know nothing about me."
As Paul said, and as the Scriptures plainly declare, as the Lord's own, we can and do have the mind of God. That being true, we know far more about you than you know. Your words and judgments tell you plainly.
You write: "However, when you spin and turn and use scripture out of context you can make it say just about anything."
Paul has shown you that you have been wrong in your judgments of how we interpret and apply Scripture. Who are you to judge if we are right or wrong, not having the mind of God, the thought of which you deem to be ridiculous to contemplate for anyone? The only way one can truly know is by His mind.
You write: "Lastly, your purpose for judging and lambasting Kyle, Ryan, and myself...."
Show us where we lambasted, by a qualified dictionary definition of the term. The fact is that you are not able to do so, and therefore falsely accuse us. Where does that leave you, Bob, not only in a temporary mood, but far more significantly, a state of being?
You write: "I've had to stop and pray many times that this post would be about upholding truth rather than me 'showing you up.'"
It is apparent your prayers have not been heard. Neither have you "shown us up," though trying your best (or worst).
You write: "Men who seek to meekly rebuke and instruct operate in a much different way than you guys operate."
You are right; they do. The problem is that you judge us wrongfully, firstly, and, secondly, you judge us by false standards, by men the conduct of those who pose as men of God but who have nothing to do with Him:
"For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 MKJV).
You have been snared by the love of Satan, known widely in nominal Christendom, taught and trained by the harlot, as God's love. You are deceived; you judge us by false standards. See this section for your sake:
False Love - The Last Stronghold
You write: "Christ always sought to deliver His message in love."
Not knowing Christ, how can you say anything about Him? Not knowing anything about true love, how can you judge? Those very words alone that you speak in that sentence tell your darkness. I will not explain. You are not interested in knowing the truth. You have nothing to do with Him, nor do you wish to, so why pretend to glorify Him? Get honest.
You write: "Obviously you gave no thought to what Kyle's wife would think were she to waywardly land on your 'Path of Destruction' site."
"Obviously" to us, you are wrong, Bob. You are wrong in all your words and your whole spirit is a wretched one. You are full of frustration and anger. Why? Where and how in your life did you develop that spirit? Continue in your ways and you will destroy yourself.
Our site plays no favorites; the chips fall where they must. If Kyle's widow were to come to our site, seeking the Lord of Heaven and earth, she would be very thankful to find us. All who seek the Truth love us and what we have to say, even if, at first, it hurts. But if she remains where she has apparently been, one with Kyle in heart, she will be offended, and so it is with all those who live in delusion. We love Kyle Lake's widow, and so we speak to all. The question is: "Does she love us?"
You write: "You clearly don't care what an unbeliever would think were they to land on your site. They would never understand why you, who claim to be believing, would publicly trash the work of another believer."
Again, what is clear to you one way is clear to us another, and we know there is nothing clear to a blind man, as he may suppose.
We are not of this world. We are not here to make unbelievers understand. We are here to speak the truth so that they might be enlightened. There is a difference.
As importantly, we publicly trash nothing good coming forth from believers. We trash the error and falsehood coming forth from false believers, who deceive with their lies, and we trash the error that comes from true, yet mistaken believers. Is it not declared that false works will be destroyed by fire? Is not God's Word as fire? We speak God's Word. What is fire for? So why do you find fault with us? Are you afraid of losing your works? If stubble can stand up to fire, so will you and your works stand up to our godly speech of judgment.
The world of unbelievers must know there is falsehood paraded in the Name of the Lord. How will they know unless informed? We inform them. If they grow cynical, it is not because of the Truth spoken by us but because of the Truth rejected by them. Cynics have no excuse; there are no external causes and therefore no excuses.
Bob, you are a foolish and angry child with a full mouth, an empty head and both expressing a bitter heart. The Lord can fix all that. I know, because I have also been there. One day you will know your state and be quite ashamed of yourself, as I have been. God's grace will be bestowed on you to make it so.
"Am I now your enemy, just because I told you the truth" (Galatians 4:16 CEV)?
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Nancy,
You ask:
"So... does that mean that God desired the 9/11 tragedy and approved of it or that absolutely no one killed on that day was 'walking with the Lord?'"
Yes, it absolutely does, though He took "no pleasure in the death of the wicked." If it does not, then Jesus Christ is a liar and fool, according to His words that you quote from Luke 13 about the 18 who perished. Your interpretation is quite in conflict with His, because He was equating what would happen to those who did not repent with what happened to those who physically perished. You are twisting His words, spiritualizing them to mean that only the next life was at stake. Clearly He was talking about the present life and the ramifications of what happens on this earthly plane because the spiritual, the Kingdom of Heaven, and more particularly the King, is spurned, His Word rejected. Hear the Word of God:
"And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah Who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
So God spares one a heart attack and lets him perish publicly by electrocution instead? Or He saves those under the Law but lets those in grace perish? Or protection is only for the flesh-circumcised Jew but not for those who possess Him within because circumcised in the heart? Perhaps you propose we depart from Christ to go back to Moses?
To say that He was talking about them being separated from God if they did not heed His call shows your ignorance of the way things are, because those in sin are already separated from God. They are spiritually dead, which is why they are called to repent and to enter into life in the first place. You cannot withhold or take away what is already not present. The Kingdom of God is within, and those in sin do not presently possess it.
Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead."
The wages paid by sin are death. There is no contradiction. Death is already here, present all around you, and in you:
"The people sitting in darkness saw a great Light; and to those sitting in the region and shadow of death, Light sprang up to them" (Matthew 4:16 LITV).
You do not know or acknowledge these things because you have religion, not reality.
Those walking in the will of God know there is no such thing as the "free will" of others. They recognize that God alone has a free will. All things come from His hand, even as Christ recognized in the days of His flesh, submitting Himself to death by His will. Jesus told Pilate that he could have nothing except it had been given to him from above.
This is why the saints in Christ do not fear man or the unknown. With God there is no unknown. We know nothing happens except God gives it to happen. He is in full control. That is the message of God, which He has given us to tell the world, to you and all other unbelieving believers.
As for your "one more thing," the Lord was not telling people to repent to avoid getting electrocuted, and He certainly was not telling them to repent to avoid "an eternity of fiery hell." He was telling them, and He is telling you, to repent so that you might enter into Life. Life is the antidote to death. That is His goal. That is the purpose for which He gave His life, which was not in vain, as you conclude, destining the vast majority of people throughout history for endless torture. What a diabolical and blasphemous depiction of God you promote! Your god is hell and death!
I have directed Bob to a section on our site that fully addresses the slanderous and false teaching of "eternal hell." You should also go there, where you will also find a writing on the fallacy of free will. Since when have slaves of sin been free?
Paul
Ryan, Victor here: Does Nancy still "crack you up"? Will you continue to be humored by darkness, flattering participants for your vanity?
Paul,
I will confess to being new to this blog and new to this issue in particular here. I will say that I have read a bit of your website, The Path of Truth, and have a few questions that I hope to have you clarify for me.
1. Is it your belief that God 'caused' Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden? What, do you believe, is the relationship between God's soverienty as Creator, and humanity's free will?
2. What exactly do you see as the effects of the fall? Both post-fall, pre-Jesus (as in the incarnation of Jesus), and post-Incarnation? It seems that you believe the the effects of the fall have changed post-Incarnation.
3. I see you write about Paul and Peter being killed for the sake of the Gospel. Who caused them to be killed? I am going to assume that God also had control and 'causation' of their deaths based on your views. Am I wrong?
Also, if Paul and Peter were killed by human agents for preaching the Gospel, do you believe that Kyle Lake could have died under similar circumstances? In other words, can you answer the differences between the deaths of Paul and Peter, and that of Kyle Lake?
I will confess I didn't know Kyle Lake, and know very little about the circumstances of his death and/or ministry. I will also confess that I don't understand how your views really take into consideration the body of orthodox Christian belief. Thank you for your time in answering these questions about your point of view.
Ryan,
The big difference between us is that we know what we are talking about, and you do not. You constantly use words to indicate this, such as:
"Cohen's quote seems...."
"...can I infer...?"
"Is this your argument?"
"Am I following your logic correctly?"
"I think your confusion...."
"I think...."
"I also think it is presumptuous for you...."
"...could it not be...?"
But you do not ever know and cannot ever say for sure. We know, and therefore we speak, knowing that His Word is sure and will not return to Him void. That answers one of your objections as to why we should bother speaking to you if you are fulfilling God's will by walking in darkness. How will that darkness be put away except by Light? More on that as I answer your post.
To begin with, we are not speaking by man's logic. That is why you are confused and do not understand us, trying to discern what we preach by your carnal mind:
"These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:13-14 MKJV).
Nevertheless, we can help by pointing out your errors, and others who will read these things will see the difference and learn to fear God, which you do not for now.
To compound things, you actively seek to debunk or discredit us rather than to know the Truth, which leads you to make foundational and costly mistakes. You misread the very quote you call most problematic and on which you base your response, running ahead in your erroneous inference, spending enormous energy and further confusing your already "tired head." How can you ever hear or learn anything from the Lord in your present state?
Your mistake: I did not say that everything you do is God's will. I said nothing happens to you, except God approves or desires it. Obviously I am not saying that God desires you to sin. What I said is that He is over every detail of your life, down to the smallest one, and I said this on His authority, as also recorded in the Bible in His words.
The Lord did not cause the children of Israel to make the golden calf, but He did command, through Moses, those returning and faithful to Him to slaughter the offenders, their own brothers, friends and neighbors:
"And he said to them, This is the word of the Lord, the God of Israel: Let every man take his sword at his side, and go from one end of the tents to the other, putting to death his brother and his friend and his neighbor. And the sons of Levi did as Moses said; and about three thousand of the people were put to death that day" (Exodus 32:27-28 BBE).
How quickly you condemn Moses and all God's servants, because you condemn Him for His judgments.
The Holocaust most certainly was an act of God. Out of the ashes of the Holocaust the nation of Israel was reborn. The Jews cannot forget their God forever. He will bring them back to Himself, as promised. Read A Letter to All Jews, Israel, Is Your God Unjust? Another Letter to the Jews, Raising the Flag and Nation of Israel and The Star of David: A Better Perspective.
Certainly the saints of the past, such as Daniel, would have recognized the Holocaust as coming from the hand of God. Daniel, in his exile, confessed the sins of his people, which is quite instructional for us to consider here today:
Daniel 9:3-16 MKJV
(3) And I set my face toward the Lord God, to seek by prayer and holy desires, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.
(4) And I prayed to Jehovah my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and awesome God, keeping the covenant and mercy to those who love Him, and to those who keep His commandments,
(5) we have sinned and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from Your commandments and from Your judgments.
(6) Neither have we listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your Name to our kings, our rulers, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
(7) O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us the shame of our faces, as it is today to the men of Judah and to the people of Jerusalem, and to all Israel who are near and who are afar off, through all the countries where You have driven them because of their sin which they have sinned against You.
(8) O Lord, shame of face belongs to us, to our kings, to our rulers, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against You.
(9) To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against Him.
(10) We have not obeyed the voice of Jehovah our God, to walk in His Laws which He set before us by His servants the prophets.
(11) Yea, all Israel has transgressed Your Law, and turned aside, that they might not obey Your voice. Therefore the curse has been poured out on us, and the oath that is written in the Law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against Him.
(12) And He has confirmed His Words which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing on us a great evil. For under all the heavens it has not been done as it has been done to Jerusalem.
(13) As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this evil has come on us. Yet we did not make our prayer before Jehovah our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Your truth.
(14) Therefore Jehovah has watched over the evil, and has brought it on us. For Jehovah our God is righteous in all His works which He does; for we did not obey His voice.
(15) And now, O Lord our God, Who have brought Your people out from the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have brought fame to Yourself, as it is today, we have sinned, we have done wrong.
(16) O Lord, I pray You, according to all Your righteousness let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. Because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a curse to all those who are around us.
For those such as you, your friends, and all those following false teachers like Kyle, what chance is there that the wrath of God can be turned from you when you do not confess the evils that come on you from the hand of your Lord God and Savior because of your sins?
When the nations that God has formed for Israel's correction have served His purpose, He will also use Israel to correct them, that He might have mercy on all:
"For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all" (Romans 11:32 MKJV).
This you do not know, confess, or care to know.
9/11 was from the hand of God, a solemn rebuke to a hypocritical, light and false people, who freely have received of God, and have despised His goodness, abusing others in the process. Has America repented? No. Therefore the wrath of God must continue in its many manifestations. And do you think those people in the twin towers were greater sinners than any of you? The Lord Jesus Christ says "No, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Read The Muslim Scourge.
The Scriptures teach that all people operate under God:
"A man may make designs for his way, but the Lord is the guide of his steps" (Proverbs 16:9 BBE).
"The king's heart is like streams of water. Both are under the LORD'S control. He turns them in any direction He chooses" (Proverbs 21:1 GW).
You apparently have not bothered to read the section on our site that I sent you, The Restitution of All Things. There you will find another writing you should also read, Whose Will is Free? How irresponsible you people are, ranting without knowledge or fulfilling your due diligence in a matter of utmost importance. It is a shame to the Name of God, which you have taken in vain.
Just as the man in Romans chapter 9 replies against God, you also contest His sovereignty in your unbelief, asking the equivalent question of me:
"You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?" (Romans 9:19 MKJV).
I will let Paul the apostle, with whom you are the one obviously in disagreement, answer you:
"No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him Who formed it, Why have You made me this way? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?" (Romans 9:20-24 MKJV)
You say there is "chance," which God is somehow over but does not determine. You plainly argue with His Word:
"A thing may be put to the decision of chance, but it comes about through the Lord" (Proverbs 16:33 BBE).
When they cast lots on the ship, Jonah was taken. There are no mistakes or accidents with God. You should also read The SIGN: The Book of Jonah, the Book of God.
You ask:
"Could we not just take all the circumstances in which thousands of small decisions by fallen people combine to create happenstance and call them chance? That is the definition most of the world - Christians included - use."
True Christians do not use the world's definition because they know that God is in control, not happenstance. You worship another god, a false and impotent one who leaves things to "chaos" and "chance."
You say it is presumptuous of us to speak of God's specific judgments on individuals, or if we speak and identify others as martyrs. Can you really not hear how stupid your arguments are? Where does one get the idea that God would not give His children eyes with which to see? Does He not tell us to judge by the fruits? How can one judge unless one can see, recognize, and differentiate between good and evil fruit?
At every turn you call Christ a liar by your declarations and summations and I will tell you why. You do not wish to come into the Light to be judged yourself, so you deny it can be applied to others. Without His judgment you cannot be saved, and you, in your ignorance and evil, deny others the salvation that Christ purchased for them. As He said to your fathers:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven before men; for you do not enter, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in" (Matthew 23:14 EMTV).
Of course, being the consummate hypocrite, you go ahead anyway and list some that are not martyrs with true martyrs of God, proving your point applies to you – you have no discernment and are wrong to guess in such matters. Cassie Bernall, it is reported by more than one witness at the Columbine shooting incident, never said what has been attributed to her (confessing faith in God before her killer). Her actual words were: "Dear God. Dear God. Why is this happening? I just want to go home." That hardly makes her a martyr.
I bring this up to demonstrate once again that you are careless in your statements, and do not know what you are talking about, even when the facts are before you.
You continuously falsely judge our motives and impugn the Word of God:
"For you to presume to know the mind of God beyond that which is revealed in scripture is arrogant and asinine."
Paul the apostle, according to you, was most arrogant and asinine:
"For who has knowledge of the mind of the Lord, so as to be His teacher? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16 BBE).
Every time you write something you prove that everything we say is true. For example, when you refuse to answer my questions about how the Scriptures point out the deadly poison of man's religion, and the need for saints to be separated from such, you prove my point by citing Billy Graham and popes and monks among others as authorities of God. Those are advocates for Mystery, Babylon the Great, the whore who sits on many waters.
Read Is the Roman Catholic Church the Bride of Christ?, Getting the Facts Straight on the Catholic Church and God, and How the Lord Exposed Billy Graham.
You say there are murderers in the Lutheran and other churches, but do not realize that the very notion of being a "Lutheran," or of any other man, is antiChrist. It is the work of the murderous and unregenerate spirit of man, at enmity with Christ, Who is God. You say:
"Every church in history has been full of murderers and adulterers and heretics."
Yes, they have, and remain so, because they are not delivered from their sins, having a form of religion but denying the Substance, Christ, Who is without the gate, with those who are His.
You ask, "... please tell me what church you attend where all the members are sinless!"
We answer: The same one as Paul the apostle, and as all the spirits of just men made perfect:
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf, that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word, that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish" (Ephesians 5:25-27 LITV).
Which is our present duty and state of being...
"Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot or blemish" (2 Peter 3:14 EMTV).
...as the bride of Christ:
"No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest" (1 John 3:9,10 EMTV).
The only church you know, the one you defend and justify, gathers in the spirit you describe:
"Everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10 EMTV).
Once again, read The True Marks of a Cult.
You evilly surmise or imply that Victor is asking God to kill you. He is not asking God for anything at all in what he related to you. He is bringing you a message from God's throne about your request. You will get what you ask for, the appropriate wages of your unrighteous attitude and behavior. We are binding on earth what He has already bound in Heaven. Go on, find fault with Him for that too, mocker. The Path of Truth is indeed a dead end street for the man of sin, and thank God for that. You will live to get your reward, and you will know that God has sent us.
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
Victor here,
Here is the explanation for your "tired head":
"For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: Because the mind of the flesh is opposite to God; it is not under the law of God, and is not able to be: So that those who are in the flesh are not able to give pleasure to God" (Romans 8:6-8 BBE).
Ears, though there are two, expend much less energy when used than does one mouth. You would do well to quit tiring your head and reap untold benefits:
"But as it is written, 'Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,' nor has it entered into the heart of man, 'the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.' But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God" (1 Corinthians 2:9-10 MKJV).
You write: "You presume to know, but you don't know. Would that you had the humility to leave some judgment to the Righteous Judge...."
We know, Ryan, but do you? If you must speak, then speak those words to your own ears. We also judge as He gives us to judge. Do you? You speak and judge to please yourself, to show that you can argue or that you have knowledge, though you prove nothing but the fool you are. Truth is the farthest thing from your mind and heart. Of you, Jesus said:
"You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29 MKJV).
You and your friends do not even know or believe that one can know the Truth without doubt or wavering, as the Holy Scriptures testify, without having to resort to, or rely upon, opinion and unproven, unscriptural doctrine in order to be involved in things too high for you.
You and your friends do not even know or believe that one can know the Truth as the Holy Scriptures testify one can and must, without having to resort to, or rely upon, opinion and unproven, unscriptural doctrine in things too high for the earthly, carnal man.
But we testify to that which we know because we know Him Who is true:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak what we know and testify what we have seen. And you do not receive our witness" (John 3:11 MKJV).
"We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
Ok, I’m getting close to giving up on this, but I’ll post another response. Maybe I can get Paul and Victor to blame God for the Aggies crappy passing game too. That’d make me feel better. Anyway, a few observations from this latest journey down “Path of Truth.”
I notice we’re quoting a lot more of the articles on the “Path of Truth” website and not so much scripture this time around.
“Also, He will not forgive you until you acknowledge Him in us, and acknowledge that you are yet offending Him by vaunting yourself against us. He does not hear your prayers or confessions while you so readily disdain and mock Him.”
God will not forgive me until I acknowledge you? Can you give me the scripture reference for this one? I’m having trouble finding that in my Bible…
Paul, what is your sin? What sin do you struggle with? You have written yourself that “The Bible teaches that no man is righteous.” So please be genuine with us as a fellow traveler so that we can identify with you and consider your words a worthy source of wisdom.
“The Scriptures in no uncertain terms speak of those having the faith of Christ as also having His mind (1 Corinthians 2:16).”
Here again, you mishandle the scriptures. In 1 Cor 2, Paul certainly does not mean to say that believers know the mind of God. To the contrary, Paul is quoting Isaiah who wrote:
“Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?
Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?
Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor?
Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?”
You see, this is hyperbole – something you consistently fail to understand. Paul’s question is rhetorical. Its obvious answer is no one. Though you may think that you know the mind of God, Paul, and that you have instructed the Lord and been his counselor and shown him the path of understanding, you have not. I promise.
"I do know Kyle Lake. Yes, I know him after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, but this is the only way to truly know anyone (2 Corinthians 5:16). From this place I reported what the Lord had shown me and has given me to say about what happened to Kyle."
Ok, now this is getting ridiculous. Paul, do you sense a disturbance in the force? Can you discern for me who’s going to win that Patriots/Colts game on Sunday because I’d like to place a bet…
"Here is the real interpretation of the verse:"
Again, presumptuous. Let all Christendom be still and silent now. The chosen one, Paul Cohen, has chosen to reveal his inherent knowledge to us…
“We are sent to declare it”… “We are here to notify everyone that the time to be humbled and to turn from your destructive ways is now”
When you say these things, who is the “we” to whom you refer? I mean are you and Victor the only true Christians? Who else is righteous that we should listen to? I’m serious. Do you belong to a church or follow a certain preacher or author? It would help me get a handle on where you’re coming from if I knew who you consider “we”.
Now Victor says, “I will not explain.”
I love this one. It exemplifies the tone of Victor and Paul’s posts. They’re not interested in discourse. They don’t say, with the Lord, “Come, let us reason together.” Instead, they just make assertions and then argue that disagreement with their assertions is evidence that we don’t know God. It’s circular and imbecilic.
“All who seek the Truth love us.”
Again with the arrogance.
""So... does that mean that God desired the 9/11 tragedy and approved of it or that absolutely no one killed on that day was 'walking with the Lord?'"
Yes, it absolutely does, though He took "no pleasure in the death of the wicked." If it does not, then Jesus Christ is a liar and fool”
WOW!!! WOOOOOW! WOW!
I think the most destructive part of this is not the argument that God chose 3,000 people to punish, gathered them in an office tower one Tuesday morning, and then killed them all with a terrorist. I think the most Luciferion thing here is that Paul somehow then links that to the veracity of Jesus’ claims. Again, Paul is asserting rather than proving, but to say that if 9/11 wasn’t God’s judgment then Jesus was a liar and fool is simply evil. Paul, please think these things through before you write them! Surely you don’t believe these things! And if you do, then we need to back up and stop arguing about these matters and start discussing some much more basic matters.
"And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah Who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
So we’re back to this argument that bad things don’t happen to true Christians, huh? True followers don’t get sick? Have you ever been sick, Paul?
“Those walking in the will of God know there is no such thing as the "free will" of others.”
Here we go. Now we’re getting back to the heart of this argument. Paul, please support your argument that no humans have free will. Specifically, explain these things:
If you have the truth and I am opposing you, who is willing me to oppose the truth?
Who wills me to sin?
Who willed that Adam and Eve sin in the garden?
Ok, Paul. You quoted several places where I invited you to clarify your position or explain your logic, then declared that you don’t need to explain your logic because you’re not using “human logic.” You write:
“To begin with, we are not speaking by man's logic. That is why you are confused and do not understand us, trying to discern what we preach by your carnal mind.”
So here’s the thing: I, by the power of my spiritual discernment, by the illuminated and self-evident truth of God found in his scriptures, and not by man’s logic, hereby declare that you are an apostate and heretic. I further declare that you are deceived in your thinking and that you are living according to your own, prideful and carnal desires. That you have no knowledge of the one true God and that you are, in fact, the Antichrist, seeking to deceive and destroy God’s people.
How’s that? Now that you and I have “declared” opposing viewpoints, how do we decide whose declaration is right? How do we know who is speaking from the Lord and who is speaking from Satan? Here, I’ll answer for you: I’m right. You’re wrong. There. I declared it and I’m also declaring that I have authority to declare it. So “slug bug, no slug bugs back.” I gotcha first. I win.
“Your mistake: I did not say that everything you do is God's will. I said nothing happens to you, except God approves or desires it. Obviously I am not saying that God desires you to sin.”
Aha! But aren’t many of the things that happen to me the result of someone else’s sin? If not for Hitler’s sin then death by poisonous gas wouldn’t have happened to thousands of Jews, right? If not for the terrorists’ sin, then 9/11 would not have happened to those victims. So who caused those things to “happen to” them? Are there accidents or not, Paul. It’s time to decide.
“The Holocaust most certainly was an act of God.” “9/11 was from the hand of God,”
Losing… life force… must… abort…… must………… abort……
“You apparently have not bothered to read the section on our site that I sent you.”
No, I haven’t. I think I’m getting plenty of your stuff here though. Thanks.
“Every time you write something you prove that everything we say is true.”
Is this kinda like, “I’m rubber. You’re glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks on you.”?
“Billy Graham and popes and monks...Those are advocates for Mystery, Babylon the Great, the whore who sits on many waters.”
I…I don’t know what to say. I…Am I dreaming this?
“"Every church in history has been full of murderers and adulterers and heretics."
Yes, they have, and remain so, because they are not delivered from their sins, having a form of religion but denying the Substance, Christ, Who is without the gate, with those who are His.”
So, again, where do you go to church, Paul? Where do we heretics find the real church? The perfect people? And what do we bring to the potluck?
Sheesh. This is so circular. Luckily, I love circles. I love everything about them. I love how round and cirular they are. I love how every point on a circle is the exact distance from the center as any other point. I love how circles have radii. It's truly fantastic.
Now, Paul and Victor, please enlighten me as to how I actually do not like circles! Teach me that I prefer squares and things with corners and straight lines, not because I am able to like things with right angles on my own accord, but because you guys have decided to give YOUR OWN opinion on the matter. Please tell me what I like because, according to you, so far I've been wrong about everything else and I'm hanging on your every word to know what I think.
Forgive me for the above silliness! I am but a "foolish and angry child with a full mouth and an empty head" so I'm trying to fulfill the role which Paul and Victor have assigned to me. Now, by their argument that God causes everything, God chose to make me such a "foolish and angry child with a full mouth and an empty head." He could have chosen to intend that I repent of my anger and seek HIS KNOWLEDGE, but instead he made me foolish and empty headed...bummer! Paul and Victor have spoken told us that is the case because they "state [things] as fact, providing the evidence" to back up all their accusations. Thank heavens! Since I truly do struggle with anger at times I was under the assumption that it was my own sinful nature that caused it when, in fact, God gave that to me and I can do nothing about it. This is a relief!
At least it was a relief until I read Ryan's latest post! Now I really don't know what to believe. Both Ryan and Paul/Victor have made claims that each is a heretic and a liar. Both claim this on their own authority through their reception of spiritual discernment, by the illuminated and self-evident truth of God found in his scriptures. If these guys are making claims like this then they must be right. But who is right? And who is wrong? If I wait long enough perhaps Ryan will call me a wise and full-headed child and then that will be so? So who is right?And if God caused both of these groups to make such statements then is it possible for them to both be correct? I mean, God would not have caused anything to be done that He did not intend, which means He intended for both groups to make such assertions, which means that they are now both correct. Smokes! Now I'm really in for it! I could potentially be both empty-headed and full-headed at the same time! Will that then make me half-headed, again out of the will of both Paul/Victor and Ryan?
If only there were some place that I can go to find a single source of Truth? Hmm...empty head trying to think...umm...Oh yeah, the Bible! Fortunately I have a full translation and not just the cut out, manually-finessed quotes that Paul and Victor have graciously interpreted for me here and on the "path of destruction" web site. Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not approaching the scripture that they use lightly or in jest, just their narrow-minded interpretation of it. In fact, it is from the Word of God that I learn of Christ's sacrifice for me. I believe the scriptures. I do not believe Paul and Victor.
So, here, I proclaim it. I am a follower of the Christ in the scriptures. I am a sinner in need of a Savior and a Spirit living in me that will daily intercede on my behalf before the Father. I declare it to all. I believe that Christ lived a perfect life, died, and was resurrected for me, and not me only, but all who join me in believing in their hearts and confessing it with their mouths...even for Paul and Victor if they chose to do so.
Paul and Victor will soon argue that I have "only given [them] my opinion" and that God "does not hear my prayers or confessions." They will reiterate that they "can" and "do" have the mind of God. When they say this, be sure you are a safe distance from them. Lightning travels at about 186,000 miles per second so getting out of the way once they claim this may prove difficult.
But do not lose heart. Christ wins. He wins no matter what I or Ryan or Kibbles or Nancy or Paul or Victor say.
I have to post and run, but believe me, I still have some things to say and will do so unless I am rendered unable to access the nothingness in my head.
Well, I managed to find my way back to this site, which, in itself, is apparently miraculous.
Ryan, you are curious about to whom the "we" refers in all Paul's writings. It clearly refers to "Paul and Victor", the only two people on earth that know my heart. I'm probably only "giving my opinion", but when you look at their website, Paul's own testimony is more about - and I quote Paul here - "being brought together with Victor to be made, in time, one in faith, calling and purpose." Sure, there is an acknowledgement to the Lord, but isn't the "oneness in faith" that we enter into with Christ, rather than another human being? My testimony is about the salvation Christ gave to me even though I don't deserve it.
Secondly, Ryan, you want to know what Paul's sin is...what he struggles with. The answer, according to their website, is that he has no sin and he struggles with nothing. Their web site says this, "Those who are the Lord's and choose to remain His will not, do not willfully sin." I think it's clear that Paul and Victor believe they belong to God...so from this statement we can infer that they also believe they do not sin. Amazing! Truly! I was aware of only 1 person who walked the Earth sinless. He was also fully God. His name was not Paul. His name was not Victor. His name was Jesus. I agree that absolutely we should not sin, that Christ calls us to sin no more, and His perfection is the stick by which we are measured. Oh, I'm way on board with that calling. I know it's NEVER okay to sin, ever. But, when Christ asked only the sinless in the group to cast the first stone there is a reason that the adulteress walked away, forgiven. Yes, yes, I know Christ told her to sin no more. That is, of course, what He wants and what He deserves of us. That is the point. The problem is that I, like every other man who could not pick up a stone, am broken...by my own choice apart from God or by His "doing". Either way, I'm a sinner in need of a Savior.
Yet, Paul Cohen, sites Paul the Apostle as one who lived righteously. I agree! What an example! But Paul the Apostle was not sinless. If he was, why would the Apostle Paul tell us to follow him as he followed Christ? If the Apostle was sinless wouldn't it be fine for me to just follow him? Don't like that logic? Then try this: Paul the Apostle called himself the cheif of sinners. He didn't use past tense.
Look at Philippians 3:12 "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."
So, who, I ask, is the hypocrite? Paul and Victor will say it is I, in my "temporary mood and state of being". Praise God! This body is only temporary!
Moving along. Victor challenges me by saying "show us where we lambasted, by a qualified dictionary definition of the term." Sure, Victor. Does the Merriam-Webster dictionary qualify, or do you have your own version of that as well? For all, here it is from Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: lam·baste
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: probably from 1lam + baste
Date: 1620
1 : to assault violently : beat, whip
2 : to attack verbally
Let's see. Number 1. Nope. I have no bruises or stripes. Ah, yes, there on definition number 2, "to attack verbally." Intersting since you wrote "the fact is that you are not able to do so".
Hmm. I feel attacked. So, I guess I'm not falsely accusing you as you say. I feel like I have successfully shown you as you ask. I suppose you will still feel that you have not lambasted me. If that's the case, just re-read Ryan's post on 2 parties claiming the very same thing. Remember my love of circles?
I feel some other things too. I feel like you enjoy very much the exclusivity of the gospel that you think you have. I feel like, from the things you guys have said, you don't care who comes to know Christ because this whole charade is about YOU and not about Christ. I wrote that men who seek to meekly rebuke operate in a different manner than you. Then, Victor responds, "you are right" - I nearly fell my empty head out of the chair when I read that - but then he clarifies, "the problem is that you judge wrongfully, firstly, and secondly, you judge us by false standards, by men the conduct of those who pose as men of God but who have nothing to do with Him."
What? How did this get to be about me again? I'm not judging, I'm just making a statement...one you apparently agreed with. But then you immediately dismiss that and go back to my judgement. Okay, let's say I am unable to judge you. I certainly am unable to judge your heart. I admit it! So, let's throw out me and my judgment here. I was talking about you and how you guys would operate differently if you were working out of love and not out of self. Check the fruits of the Spirit; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control (Gal 5:22). There is none to be found in your discourse with me.
So, I go back to calling a duck and duck. If you really cared about winning souls to Christ, you would operate differently. You would handle your words with me, a person you've never met, differently. You would save your judgment of me for Christ and seek instead to gently draw me to the Truth that you think I am missing with Patience and Kindness. You would handle yourselves with compassion for Kyle's wife and friends by bringing the Truth you recognize to light with Love, Peace, and Gentleness. You would engage Ryan, Nancy, and Kibbles with Joy and Self-Control. And we might all be better for it. As it is, you fail to hit the mark...the mark of perfection set up by Christ Himself.
I will still pray for you guys and know that the Lord forgives me, loves me, and hears my calls...whether you think so or not.
Kibbles, you write:
"I will also confess that I don't understand how your views really take into consideration the body of orthodox Christian belief."
That is easy. It comes against "orthodox Christian belief," which is Catholic, officially or otherwise, mother and daughters with the same blood.
There is much on our site that answers your questions. In particular, read Whose Will Is Free? (These blog postings answer your questions, too, if your eyes and ears were open to see and hear.)
Read Our Testimonies to begin to hear about pre and post fall life.
You ask if God is responsible for the blood of His martyrs. The blood of the martyrs, which is sanctified in Christ, is laid at the feet of all religious, as Jesus said:
"Therefore, behold, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and you will crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues and you will persecute from city to city, so that on you may come all the righteous blood being shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar" (Matthew 23:34-35 EMTV).
That means you are also guilty of their blood, and God is holding you responsible for it.
The difference between Kyle Lake and Paul and Peter? Yes, we can answer that, though we already have. Of Kyle Lake it is written:
"Woe to you when all men shall speak well of you! For so their fathers did to the false prophets" (Luke 6:26 MKJV).
Kyle was not and is not hated for the gospel's sake. He was not killed for his testimony, as are the saints in Christ:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (Revelation 6:9 MKJV).
Kyle was a decorator of the tombs of the prophets and the righteous, not a partaker in the cross of the living Christ. That is why he was not universally hated as are His servants:
"And you will be hated by all for My Name's sake..." (Mark 13:13 MKJV).
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12 KJV).
As a builder and decorator of their tombs, here is what the Lord had to say to Kyle:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets; and you fill up the measure of your fathers" (Matthew 23:27-32 MKJV).
You can read more about this, the essence of the matter as pertains to life and death, if you have the heart to do so.
What Happened to Kyle Lake
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
I respond below in the body of Ryan's latest posting, with each writer identified.
I made a mistake in my last post, and ask people to please ignore or remove the duplicated paragraph in Victor's portion, the first one, of two, that begins:
"You and your friends do not even know or believe that one can know the Truth...."
As for our answers here, the Lord Jesus Christ has sent us to speak on His behalf and you will know it, if you do not already.
Ryan: Ok, I'm getting close to giving up on this, but I'll post another response. Maybe I can get Paul and Victor to blame God for the Aggies crappy passing game too. That'd make me feel better. Anyway, a few observations from this latest journey down "Path of Truth."
Paul: Is it not amazing that those naming the Name of Christ are so interested and involved in spectator sports? Can one see Peter and Paul visiting the Coliseum, if it were built in their day, while in Rome to watch the gladiators and other sports, becoming followers and fanatics? Don't those naming Christ know there are far better things to do with one's time? Are you all hypocrites like Ryan, believing in eternal hell-fire, yet spending your time watching football games and cheering on your teams, no differently than your fellow fans that you expect will soon be roasting in hell? If you really believed your own blasphemies you should be doing everything you could to save your fellow sinners from such an unimaginable fate, but instead you indulge your animal passions on football. You are certainly no children of His, not that we ever for a moment could think you were.
Ryan: I notice we're quoting a lot more of the articles on the "Path of Truth" website and not so much scripture this time around.
Paul: Whether we quote Scriptures or not, Ryan has no answers. He also fails to notice or mention that our writings on The Path of Truth are full of Scriptures with applications and teachings for the soul hungry for the Word of God.
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] Also, He will not forgive you until you acknowledge Him in us, and acknowledge that you are yet offending Him by vaunting yourself against us. He does not hear your prayers or confessions while you so readily disdain and mock Him."
God will not forgive me until I acknowledge you? Can you give me the scripture reference for this one? I'm having trouble finding that in my Bible...
Paul: Isn't it amazing that one would, as Ryan does, honor usurper popes who claim to be the "sole vicars" of Christ, each in his "reign," yet deny Jesus Christ coming in every one of His brethren, as He said He would?
"For I say to you, You will not see Me from this time till you say, A blessing on him who comes in the Name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39 BBE).
"And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise nor disdain, but as an angel of God you received me, even as Christ Jesus" (Galatians 4:14 EMTV).
"And Jesus said to them again, May peace be with you! As the Father sent Me, even so I now send you. And when He had said this, breathing on them, He said to them, Let the Holy Spirit come on you: Any to whom you give forgiveness, will be made free from their sins; and any from whom you keep back forgiveness, will still be in their sins" (John 20:21-23 BBE).
Ryan: Paul, what is your sin? What sin do you struggle with? You have written yourself that "The Bible teaches that no man is righteous." So please be genuine with us as a fellow traveler so that we can identify with you and consider your words a worthy source of wisdom.
Paul: "So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17 MKJV).
If anyone wishes to hear of the marvelous work of Christ's deliverance from sin, that is what our site is all about, beginning with Our Testimonies.
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] The Scriptures in no uncertain terms speak of those having the faith of Christ as also having His mind (1 Corinthians 2:16)."
Here again, you mishandle the scriptures. In 1 Cor 2, Paul certainly does not mean to say that believers know the mind of God. To the contrary, Paul is quoting Isaiah who wrote:
"Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?
Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?
Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor?
Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?"
You see, this is hyperbole - something you consistently fail to understand. Paul's question is rhetorical. Its obvious answer is no one. Though you may think that you know the mind of God, Paul, and that you have instructed the Lord and been his counselor and shown him the path of understanding, you have not. I promise.
Paul: The apostle Paul was not asking a question; he was making a statement: "But we have the mind of Christ." Where or how can one say he did not mean what he said? Plainly he did. Even the word "but" indicates a break from the previous thought, which was the quote of Isaiah (he was the one posing the question). And what Paul said was in agreement with Isaiah, which is that no man is above God, though, as with Ryan, they presume to be when judging the things of God without knowing Him.
I can very easily prove that Paul meant what he said by quoting the rest of his saying in context:
"For who knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, in order that we might know the things granted to us by God; which we also speak, not in words taught in human wisdom, but in words taught by the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:11-14 EMTV).
These things are foolishness to Ryan, are they not?
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] I do know Kyle Lake. Yes, I know him after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, but this is the only way to truly know anyone (2 Corinthians 5:16). From this place I reported what the Lord had shown me and has given me to say about what happened to Kyle."
Ok, now this is getting ridiculous. Paul, do you sense a disturbance in the force? Can you discern for me who's going to win that Patriots/Colts game on Sunday because I’d like to place a bet...
Paul: See above quotation from I Corinthians 2.
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] Here is the real interpretation of the verse:"
Again, presumptuous. Let all Christendom be still and silent now. The chosen one, Paul Cohen, has chosen to reveal his inherent knowledge to us...
Paul: What is presumptuous is to ridicule the deliverer of true words that one is not be able to disprove or argue against. There is nothing presumptuous about knowing the truth and declaring it. A person who thinks the Bible is the truth and yet mocks the notion of a true interpretation of it is a fool and hypocrite.
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] We are sent to declare it"... "We are here to notify everyone that the time to be humbled and to turn from your destructive ways is now."
When you say these things, who is the "we" to whom you refer? I mean are you and Victor the only true Christians? Who else is righteous that we should listen to? I'm serious. Do you belong to a church or follow a certain preacher or author? It would help me get a handle on where you're coming from if I knew who you consider "we".
Paul: "We" are the Body of Christ:
"But you have come to Zion, to the Mountain and city of the living God, to a heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn in the heavens, to God the Judge of all, and to spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which speaks better things than the blood of Abel" (Hebrews 12:22-24 EMTV).
Ryan: Now Victor says, "I will not explain."
I love this one. It exemplifies the tone of Victor and Paul's posts. They're not interested in discourse. They don't say, with the Lord, "Come, let us reason together." Instead, they just make assertions and then argue that disagreement with their assertions is evidence that we don't know God. It's circular and imbecilic.
Paul: The whole quote to Bob in context:
"You write: 'Christ always sought to deliver His message in love.'
"Not knowing Christ, how can you say anything about Him? Not knowing anything about true love, how can you judge? Those very words alone that you speak in that sentence tell your darkness. I will not explain. You are not interested in knowing the truth. You have nothing to do with Him, nor do you wish to, so why pretend to glorify Him? Get honest."
"Do not answer a fool according to his foolishness, lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his foolishness, so that he may not be wise in his own eyes" (Proverbs 26:4-5 MKJV).
Ryan: "[Quoting Victor] All who seek the Truth love us."
Again with the arrogance.
Paul: "Everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone that loves Him that begot also loves him that is begotten of Him" (1 John 5:1 EMTV).
Ryan: "[Quoting his question posed to Paul] So... does that mean that God desired the 9/11 tragedy and approved of it or that absolutely no one killed on that day was 'walking with the Lord?'"
"[Quoting Paul's answer] Yes, it absolutely does, though He took "no pleasure in the death of the wicked." If it does not, then Jesus Christ is a liar and fool"
WOW!!! WOOOOOW! WOW!
I think the most destructive part of this is not the argument that God chose 3,000 people to punish, gathered them in an office tower one Tuesday morning, and then killed them all with a terrorist. I think the most Luciferion thing here is that Paul somehow then links that to the veracity of Jesus' claims. Again, Paul is asserting rather than proving, but to say that if 9/11 wasn't God's judgment then Jesus was a liar and fool is simply evil. Paul, please think these things through before you write them! Surely you don't believe these things! And if you do, then we need to back up and stop arguing about these matters and start discussing some much more basic matters.
Paul: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7 KJV).
"But if you will not listen to Me, and will not do all these commandments, and if you shall despise My statutes, or if your soul hates My judgments, so that you will not do all My commandments, so that you break My covenant; I will also do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, consumption, and burning fever, consuming the eyes and causing sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set My face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies. They that hate you shall reign over you. And you shall flee when none pursues you" (Leviticus 26:14-17 MKJV).
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell" (Matthew 10:28 EMTV).
Ryan: "[Recalling Victor's quote of Scripture] And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah Who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
So we're back to this argument that bad things don't happen to true Christians, huh? True followers don't get sick? Have you ever been sick, Paul?
Paul: "For all the promises of God in Him are yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God by us" (2 Corinthians 1:20 MKJV).
"The Lord God is our sun and our strength: the Lord will give grace and glory: He will not keep back any good thing from those whose ways are upright" (Psalms 84:11 BBE).
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] Those walking in the will of God know there is no such thing as the 'free will' of others."
Here we go. Now we're getting back to the heart of this argument. Paul, please support your argument that no humans have free will. Specifically, explain these things:
If you have the truth and I am opposing you, who is willing me to oppose the truth?
Who wills me to sin?
Who willed that Adam and Eve sin in the garden?
Paul: "But indeed, O man, who are you to be answering back against God? Surely the thing formed will not say to him who formed it, 'Why did you made me like this?' Or does not the Potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?" (Romans 9:20-21 EMTV)
Ryan: Ok, Paul. You quoted several places where I invited you to clarify your position or explain your logic, then declared that you don't need to explain your logic because you're not using "human logic." You write:
"To begin with, we are not speaking by man's logic. That is why you are confused and do not understand us, trying to discern what we preach by your carnal mind."
So here's the thing: I, by the power of my spiritual discernment, by the illuminated and self-evident truth of God found in his scriptures, and not by man's logic, hereby declare that you are an apostate and heretic. I further declare that you are deceived in your thinking and that you are living according to your own, prideful and carnal desires. That you have no knowledge of the one true God and that you are, in fact, the Antichrist, seeking to deceive and destroy God's people.
How's that? Now that you and I have "declared" opposing viewpoints, how do we decide whose declaration is right? How do we know who is speaking from the Lord and who is speaking from Satan? Here, I'll answer for you: I'm right. You're wrong. There. I declared it and I'm also declaring that I have authority to declare it. So "slug bug, no slug bugs back." I gotcha first. I win.
Paul: Any careful reader will know that there is nothing we have not fully answered here, so the above characterization and accusation that we have not is a lie from hell, and we know we deal with you, Satan, and your children, but what can you do against the Truth? Nothing, nothing at all.
As for how one will know the difference between those sent by God and those usurping His seat and serving themselves:
"For every tree is judged by its fruit. Men do not get figs from thorns, or grapes from blackberry plants. The good man, out of the good store of his heart, gives good things; and the evil man, out of his evil store, gives evil: for out of the full store of the heart come the words of the mouth" (Luke 6:44-45 BBE).
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] Your mistake: I did not say that everything you do is God's will. I said nothing happens to you, except God approves or desires it. Obviously I am not saying that God desires you to sin."
Aha! But aren't many of the things that happen to me the result of someone else's sin? If not for Hitler's sin then death by poisonous gas wouldn't have happened to thousands of Jews, right? If not for the terrorists' sin, then 9/11 would not have happened to those victims. So who caused those things to "happen to" them? Are there accidents or not, Paul. It"s time to decide.
"The Holocaust most certainly was an act of God." "9/11 was from the hand of God,"
Losing... life force... must... abort... ... must... ... ... abort... ...
Paul: "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16 MKJV).
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] You apparently have not bothered to read the section on our site that I sent you."
No, I haven't. I think I'm getting plenty of your stuff here though. Thanks.
Paul: "Whoever gives an answer before he listens is stupid and shameful" (Proverbs 18:13 GW).
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] Every time you write something you prove that everything we say is true."
Is this kinda like, "I'm rubber. You're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks on you."?
Paul: Yes.
Ryan: "[Quoting Paul] Billy Graham and popes and monks...Those are advocates for Mystery, Babylon the Great, the whore who sits on many waters."
I...I don't know what to say. I...Am I dreaming this?
Paul: "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11 KJV).
"And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:16-17 MKJV)
"You look forward to the day when the LORD comes to judge. But you are in for trouble! It won't be a time of sunshine; all will be darkness. You will run from a lion, only to meet a bear. You will escape to your house, rest your hand on the wall, and be bitten by a snake. The day when the LORD judges will be dark, very dark, without a ray of light" (Amos 5:18-20 CEV).
Ryan: "[His own quote] Every church in history has been full of murderers and adulterers and heretics."
"[Quoting Paul] Yes, they have, and remain so, because they are not delivered from their sins, having a form of religion but denying the Substance, Christ, Who is without the gate, with those who are His."
So, again, where do you go to church, Paul? Where do we heretics find the real church? The perfect people? And what do we bring to the potluck?
Paul: "I hate, I despise your feast days; and I will not delight in your solemn assemblies" (Amos 5:21 LITV).
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand" (Daniel 12:10 MKJV).
"He acting unjustly, let him still act unjustly. And the filthy, let him be filthy still. And the righteous, let him be righteous still. And the holy, let him be holy still" (Revelation 22:11 MKJV).
Victor: I saw the Lord, as He stood calmly watching the battle set in array, the evil furious against the good, according to His Sovereign will, to demonstrate the power of good and the futility of evil. Good will overcome and prevail, while evil will be put away.
That is why we have been in battle here. It is the Lord's doing to demonstrate the power of His Light in darkness. Because we have both used weaponry, this correspondence appears to have deteriorated into a mud-slinging match but that is not the case, except to the undiscerning and evil-minded, who see no difference.
Those against us, as Ryan, Bob, and Nancy, have used daggers, sharp arrows, and mud - cynicism, sarcasm, ridicule, wicked humor - scorning and mocking us with bitterness and hatred, while cheering one another on, entertaining each other, seeking one another's honor and praise, standing with the one they serve, the prince of darkness, whose weapons are carnal.
On the other hand, though we have spoken the truth hard to hear where "the chips fall," we have used none of those tactics. We have not done so because we stand with the Lord Jesus Christ, the One they so despise. Our weapons have been the invincible sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith, with our "loins girded" in truth, where our enemies, in their brand of "godly humor," confessedly would like to do us harm. Our sole intent has been, and is, that God be glorified.
While our enemies have ridiculed our stance and approach and conducted themselves contemptuously and derisively toward us, they have demonstrated their brand and example of love and lesson on how to treat others, while accusing us of lack in same. What objective and honest person can miss the contradiction?
You people have been confronted as never before (Think about it; isn't it so?), and you have been found wanting. We have defeated you in this war.
It is no credit to us whatsoever. Our Leader is the Captain of the hosts of Heaven, the Lord of lords and King of kings, called Faithful and True, and we are so thankful that we have the undeserved privilege of following Him and identifying with Him in a world of great darkness and wickedness, and that, in His Name. Millennia ago, one of our brothers spoke of what would come to pass in this day:
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, 'Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.' These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaks puffed up words, flattering people to gain advantage" (Jude 1:14-16 EMTV).
Truth and goodness have been extended to you, but you have scorned them and the Lord, blaspheming. Even as we speak, you scoff. You have not walked away alive, though our hands are clear of your blood.
We commit these things into the Father's hands, as we should.
www.thepathoftruth.com
I'm done with these modern day gnostics. Thanks for having me on your blog though, Ryan. Good to see you as well Bob. I actually do with Paul the best. There just really isn't any room for discussion when someone claims they have direct revelation from God about the interpretation of Scripture. It is also very hard to discuss with people who feel they are in a place where they can know who is and who isn't condemned to hell. I am very glad that the Living God knows Kyle Lake better than any of us, and will deal with Kyle in an appropriate manner. I am reminded of a quote from Erwin MacManus. "Sometimes God comes through after you die." I will therefore continue to place my faith in God through His Son Jesus Christ, as I know Ryan and Bob will. I think the three of us are confindent in how God will deal with us because of the blood of Jesus and not because of what www.thepathoftruth.com says.
Paul and Victor,
Would you each publicly state your belief that Jesus Christ, the Son of God who prayed to the Father and sits at His right hand, who asked the Father to send the co-existing Counselor, has come in the flesh? Would you make such a claim? Please, don't quote scripture here. I know it to be true from scripture. I'm curious if would you each make such a claim.
For Paul and Victor,
Thank you for your words of truth above and on your site. I believe we must pull no punches in defense of the the unwavering Truth. There is no grey area.
I know Ryan, have known him for some time, and he cannot see he's living a farse... diluting God and His Word. But every step he takes is encouraged by packs of "Christians" who are equally fooled by the powers of this present darkness. The true workers are indeed few.
Please pray in the Spirit on my behalf and let me know what the Lord tells you. He's recently shown me that I need to "shake the dust from my feet" concerning Ryan. I pray God will encourage and admonish me through you...I'm already encouraged by your posting and by what the Lord has allowed you to see. I thirst for what God reveals and look forward to your response.
-Until it is swallowed Isa. 25:7-8
Tim
Ok, let me first of all congratulate all of you who contributed to this discussion. We have shattered Otter Fodder records both in number and length of replies. Good work, team!
Paul the apostle did enjoy a good spectator sport in his day. He used analogies from sport very often. He said physical training is of some value. He talked about running the race in such as way as to win and seeking an imperishable crown as opposed to the perishable crowns of olive branches given in ancient Olympic games. More to the point, in an effort to be relevant to his audience, Paul sought to be “all things to all people” and to use the customs and even architecture of the places where he preached to reach people there. Paul sought to be relevant to his modern culture. Paul and Victor, you’re about as relevant as an 8-track.
Also, you knew that “Aggies” and “passing game” referred to sports? Shame on you! Repent, sinner!
Hey, buddy, thanks for not answering my questions. I asked for your confession. What are your sins? What sin did you commit today? Share with us. I can tell you that I stretched the truth today. I lied. When trying to explain why I was late to a meeting, I told a client that I had three other client meetings this morning. In actuality, it was two meetings with three clients (two of them were in the same meeting). So there’s my confession. What’s yours? What sin did you commit today? What have you confessed to God today?
If you have not made your confession to God today, then I encourage you to do so. In fact, I’ll make a pact with you. Today is November 1. By November 30, I’ll choke down every word of your website if you’ll pray Ps. 139:23-24 every day. Just take five minutes, get away from distractions, and pray those two verses back to the Lord every day this month and see if he starts to soften your heart. Will you make that deal with me? Victor, you’re invited too.
And now, I’d like to use scripture in response to some of Paul’s assertions in just the same way that he uses it.
Paul wrote: “What happened when Kyle Lake died was a testimony to the lethalness of false religion. That is to what Lake gave testimony, not Christ (though he did it in Christ’s Name), and it killed him. It was a great wake up call to everyone to beware of playing games with God (see Victor’s letter to Esau at http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/whathappenedtokylelake.htm). If you do not repent, you will all likewise perish, as with your friend’s friend “in ministry,” who died not as a martyr for God’s glory, but as a mongrel to man’s shame.”
My response: “Designate a place outside of camp where you can go to relieve yourself.” Deut. 23:12
Victor wrote: “You speak of having a “theological collar.” That is your problem. You serve carnal concepts of Christ, laboring under men’s collars and “get hot” rather than taking upon yourself Christ’s yoke, which is easy, and which alone gives rest and peace (Matthew 11:28-29).
My response: “But Jael, Heber’s wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.” Judges 4:21
Sorry. I just couldn’t resist. :)
Also, see ya Kibbles. Thanks for posting!
I want to thank Paul and Victor for their hilarious comic strip. I LOVE Non Sequitur guys...I read it in every Sunday paper...you have a talent, keep it up.
Bob, you ask us:
"Paul and Victor,
Would you each publicly state your belief that Jesus Christ, the Son of God who prayed to the Father and sits at His right hand, who asked the Father to send the co-existing Counselor, has come in the flesh? Would you make such a claim? Please, don't quote scripture here. I know it to be true from scripture. I'm curious if would you each make such a claim."
Yes, we absolutely affirm that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Lord of lords and King of kings, has come in the flesh.
Regarding your previous post (which we answer below), we must tell you that only evil fools use the fact that God is sovereign and rules over Heaven and earth to excuse themselves from their sins. So, if that is what you choose, then be an evil fool, a dog who chases his tail, and please yourself for as long as God will allow it, but know this:
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap" (Galatians 6:7 MKJV).
For those who will receive help (none excluded), and the instruction of truth that can awaken one out of the deadly religious lethargy brought on by partaking of the whore's sins, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ we "fight with beasts at Ephesus" and will answer Bob's complaint against us. Contrary to what some have said here, the Scriptures contend that this fight is well worth it:
"If according to man I fought with beasts in Ephesus, what is the profit to me if the dead are not raised? ...my beloved brothers, you be firm, immovable, abounding in the work of the Lord always, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:32,58 LITV).
Bob: When they [Paul and Victor] say this [having the mind of God], be sure you are a safe distance from them. Lightning travels at about 186,000 miles per second so getting out of the way once they claim this may prove difficult.
Paul: There is no escaping the Light, the Word of Truth that we speak, which for some is providential. For, what one man loathes as death, another welcomes as life. As the apostle of Christ wrote:
"For we are the fragrance of Christ to God among those being saved, and among those perishing. To some we are the fragrance of death leading to death, but to others the fragrance of life leading to life" (2 Corinthians 2:15-16 EMTV).
Bob: Paul's own testimony is more about - and I quote Paul here - "being brought together with Victor to be made, in time, one in faith, calling and purpose." Sure, there is an acknowledgement to the Lord, but isn't the "oneness in faith" that we enter into with Christ, rather than another human being?
Paul: The prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ:
"And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.... And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me. And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one, I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me" (John 17:11, 20-23 MKJV).
Anyone who enters into oneness with Christ enters into oneness with
all those in Him, and will particularly show great love to those sent by Him to minister the gospel for their salvation:
"And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise nor disdain, but as an angel of God you received me, even as Christ Jesus. What then was your blessing? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have torn out your own eyes and given them to me!" (Galatians 4:14-15 EMTV)
Only Satan and those with him in darkness dispute this. Satan is the prince of the independent religious, each doing his or her own thing, as you all do here today, unabashedly, even boastfully (no man will tell us what the Scriptures say, or what to do!).
Bob: Their web site says this, "Those who are the Lord's and choose to remain His will not, do not willfully sin." I think it's clear that Paul and Victor believe they belong to God...so from this statement we can infer that they also believe they do not sin.
Paul: We, contrary to your accusations, did not write the Bible. The following are not our words, except in spirit we are in 100% in agreement, because we are in the Lord Jesus Christ Who inspired them:
"No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 John 3:9 EMTV).
We also agree with His Word regarding those who say they cannot help but sin:
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; but was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet" (2 Peter 2:12-16 KJV).
Bob: Amazing! Truly! I was aware of only 1 person who walked the Earth sinless. He was also fully God.
Paul: Jesus Christ as God, being also the Son of Man, makes a bridge through His cross for man to receive the righteousness and life of God, in order that He would yet live on earth:
"I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf" (Galatians 2:20 MKJV).
Here is what the Scriptures say about those who do not confess to having this life as Paul confessed, or receiving those that have it in Christ:
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (2 John 1:7 KJV).
Bob: But Paul the Apostle was not sinless. If he was, why would the Apostle Paul tell us to follow him as he followed Christ?
Paul: That is exactly why. Christ cleansed Paul of his sin and delivered him from the body of death (Romans 7:25). That is why Paul directed others to follow him as he followed Christ, because the Lord brought him into His sinlessness. This does not negate that men need shepherds sent by God to lead them into His grace. Paul also called himself a wise master builder. He was prepared and sent of God to bring salvation to the Lord's people.
Being born again, without which Jesus said no man would see the Kingdom of Heaven, is all about becoming sinless (no longer walking according to the spirit of this world). It is about receiving the Nature of God, and by His power overcoming the flesh to die by sin no more ("He that believes on me shall never die"). It is Heaven on earth.
If a person is in the Spirit of Christ, how can they sin? Is Christ a sinner? This is the purpose of the incarnation of God in Christ and man. Paul made it very clear that he, having been brought into union with God through Christ, no longer walked in sin:
"What may we say, then? Are we to go on in sin so that there may be more grace? In no way. How may we, who are dead to sin, be living in it any longer? Or are you without the knowledge that all we who had baptism into Christ Jesus, had baptism into His death? We have been placed with Him among the dead through baptism into death: so that as Christ came again from the dead by the glory of the Father, we, in the same way, might be living in new life. For, if we have been made like Him in His death, we will, in the same way, be like Him in His coming to life again; Being conscious that our old man was put to death on the cross with Him, so that the body of sin might be put away, and we might no longer be servants to sin. Because he who is dead is free from sin" (Romans 6:1-7 BBE).
Again, we know that Paul was free from sin because he declared unambiguously that he was dead with Christ:
"I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf" (Galatians 2:20 MKJV).
Why argue against the Record and deny yourself the blessing of God in Christ?
Bob: If the Apostle was sinless wouldn't it be fine for me to just follow him?
Paul: Yes, and that is why Paul said, and God commanded, others to follow him, because he followed Christ, the One Who would deliver his followers from sin as well:
"So that you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation. Among these you shine as lights in the world, holding forth the Word of Life, so that I may rejoice with you in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain nor labored in vain" (Philippians 2:15-16 MKJV).
The saints of God are called to a present blamelessness, for which Christ is more than sufficient. Who is the liar that will say He is not? Is one in blamelessness sinning? Who is the accuser of the brethren that says he is?
Bob: Don't like that logic? Then try this: Paul the Apostle called himself the cheif of sinners. He didn't use past tense.
Paul: Let's read the whole portion and hear the rest of the story:
"Faithful is the Word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. But for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all long-suffering, as a pattern to those being about to believe on Him to life everlasting" (1 Timothy 1:15-16 MKJV).
It is evident that Jesus Christ brought mercy to Paul, the chief of sinners, and delivered him from his great sin to bring him into life everlasting. That one cannot remain in sin and enter into life is a fundamental principle of truth:
"But now having been set free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:22-23 LITV).
So what did Paul mean by using the present tense when he spoke of himself as the chief of sinners? Clearly he was no longer doing the same things he had been before being turned. All he meant to say was that in him, in his flesh, dwelt no good thing (Romans 7:18). Flesh is flesh. Christ had delivered Paul from the corruption of his flesh, but it still was, as with all men, not to be trusted. It is corrupt, period. Those not born again cannot know this, because flesh is all they have had to walk in. If you have not received the Spirit of Christ, how can you know the difference between spirit and flesh? You don't.
Paul, having received the Spirit of God, and walking with Him according to His power, was not looking back, though not forgetting what manner of man he was, and could be, should he despise the grace of God given to him. He always gave God the credit and glory for what He had done with his life, and in this he set an example to be followed by all sincere seekers of truth and lovers of God.
Bob: Look at Philippians 3:12 "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me." So, who, I ask, is the hypocrite? Paul and Victor will say it is I, in my "temporary mood and state of being". Praise God! This body is only temporary!
Paul: Again, while we cannot but expect that dogs will rip and tear the holy things of God, let us look at the context of this Scripture for the sake of those who will hear, and be turned their wicked ways:
"That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:10-12 KJV).
To win the race, one must finish it. No doubt there is a physical resurrection that lies ahead, and Paul was speaking of his persistence and the manner in which he set himself to continue steadfast in his faith to attain it. In this, once again, he has provided an excellent example to all saints not to lose hope or faint in the day of battle:
"Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain. And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. So then I run, not as if I were uncertain. And so I fight, not as one who beats the air. But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected" (1 Corinthians 9:24-27 MKJV).
But the prize of Christ is not what those will find, who fight against God and twist His words, rejecting His appearing. Yes, this body is only temporary, as Bob says, but the Lord spells out that not all will find relief being delivered of it:
"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28-29 MKJV).
Here are more words for Bob:
"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are. Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool so that he may be wise" (1 Corinthians 3:17-18 MKJV).
Bob: Victor challenges me by saying "show us where we lambasted, by a qualified dictionary definition of the term." Sure, Victor. Does the Merriam-Webster dictionary qualify, or do you have your own version of that as well? For all, here it is from Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: lam•baste
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: probably from 1lam + baste
Date: 1620
1 : to assault violently : beat, whip
2 : to attack verbally
Let's see. Number 1. Nope. I have no bruises or stripes. Ah, yes, there on definition number 2, "to attack verbally." Intersting since you wrote "the fact is that you are not able to do so".
Hmm. I feel attacked. So, I guess I'm not falsely accusing you as you say.
Paul: We cannot base any determination of reality solely on one's feelings. Bob's feelings are based on his admittedly corrupt heart, and, regarding that, God says this:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9 KJV)
So where is your evidence that we have lambasted you? Because we tell you facts, which we have proven, that provide a positive diagnosis to point you away from your self-destructive ways into life, that does not qualify as a lambasting. Your dictionary is rather short on providing the full definition and meaning of the word.
This, from the American Heritage dictionary:
1. lambaste - beat with a cane
cane, lambast, flog
beat up, work over, beat - give a beating to; subject to a beating, either as a punishment or as an act of aggression; "Thugs beat him up when he walked down the street late at night"; "The teacher used to beat the students"
2.lambaste - censure severely or angrily; "The mother scolded the child for entering a stranger's car"; "The deputy ragged the Prime Minister"; "The customer dressed down the waiter for bringing cold soup"
Any responsible reader will know, without a doubt, that we have spoken in a spirit of listening (respect) and answering carefully with substance, which not one of our attackers can gainsay. Instead, you mock, deride, and reject us. We have been willing to overlook the attacks and spurious charges to speak to you nevertheless. That is Jesus Christ, not our flesh. In our flesh we are no different or less vile than any of you. The flesh is all that you - Bob, Ryan, Nancy, and Kibbles – manifest.
Bob: I certainly am unable to judge your heart. I admit it! So, let's throw out me and my judgment here.
Paul: One of the only true things you have said. If only you would follow through on it, humbling yourself to shut up and listen, to hear and repent, and to lose your life so that you might gain it. But pride is a tenacious taskmaster.
So here is the sum of the matter:
We walk in the Spirit; you walk in the flesh.
We are of God; you are of the devil.
We are Christ; you are antiChrist.
The Lord has put these things together to give a palpable demonstration of the contrast between His work (Christ) and man’s work (antiChrist). Into the darkness He shines Light. He has come to manifest His Nature, which is to make His Name known before all.
Paul Cohen
www.thepathoftruth.com
Kibbles, it is impossible to discuss things with someone who does not even bother to read the appropriate materials that would inform him or her of his or her mistaken assumptions. You have not responsibly red anything we sent over, or you could not make the statements you make about us condemning you to hell, and using that as justification to walk away.
However, that you are in hell, presently, we positively affirm, which is why we are sent to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ, the Savior of all men, Who is not willing that any should perish, but that all should be brought to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
If there is no such thing as direct revelation from God, then you are admittedly not part of His called out ones, those who comprise His church:
"Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father Who is in Heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:17-18 EMTV).
Amen.
The Scriptures, the Word of God that you claim to believe, testify against you. If you had faith in God through Jesus Christ you would affirm the Scriptures, as we do, and would hear our words and receive us.
Paul
Kibbles, Victor here.
Among other things, which Paul has answered, you write:
"There just really isn't any room for discussion when someone claims they have direct revelation from God about the interpretation of Scripture."
True Jews are those who are as Paul the apostle defined:
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God" (Romans 2:28-29 MKJV).
Of you and then of true Jews, Jesus said:
"You worship what you do not know [you], we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews [us]" (John 4:22 MKJV).
Direct revelation is a distinct promise and guarantee from God (a major component of the "salvation package"), which, obviously, by your own inadvertent admission, you do not have, even while you claim to believe. And being Jews circumcised in the heart, we have it, as our Savior promised. So you are right in your statement. You are there in darkness, with emptiness, a spiritual deficit, while we have the substance, by God's grace. Therefore there is no discussion to be had, if you think you know when you don't. You would do well to humble yourself, proud and wise one, shut your mouth, and open your ears.
Here is some Biblical advice for you:
"Guard your steps when you go to the house of God, and be more ready to hear than to give the sacrifice of fools. For they do not know that they are doing evil" (Ecclesiastes 5:1 MKJV).
"Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool so that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written, 'He takes the wise in their own craftiness.' And again, 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain'" (1 Corinthians 3:18-20 MKJV).
But if you wish to remain in your foolishness you call wisdom:
"Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him" (Proverbs 26:12 MKJV).
And, seeing you have come speaking without knowing, as Paul has shown you:
"Do you see a man hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him" (Proverbs 29:20 MKJV).
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
For Tim,
"And in this mountain He will put an end to the shade covering the face of all peoples, and the veil which is stretched over all nations. He has put an end to death for ever; and the Lord God will take away all weeping; and He will put an end to the shame of His people in all the earth: for the Lord has said it" (Isaiah 25:7-8 BBE).
If you can receive it, we are that mountain in the Lord.
"This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvelous in our eyes" (Psalms 118:23 KJV).
We can tell you that these words are also true:
"Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him Who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life" (John 5:24 EMTV).
Those who believe in Him Who sends us shall not come into judgment, but have passed from death into life.
If He has shown you to wipe the dust from your feet, then by all means you must be doing as He says. Do not doubt. We do know that Ryan is not a Christian (one in whom Christ dwells or with whom He companies), as evidenced in this correspondence, so if you are one, or are seeking after Him, you can have nothing to do with Ryan on that basis:
"Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness? And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty" (2 Corinthians 6:14-18 MKJV).
We have come here, not to fellowship with darkness, but to speak the Word of God against, and to expose, it:
“And have no partnership with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them” (Ephesians 5:11 EMTV).
As Elijah slew the prophets of Baal, so do we. The question he asked the onlookers is also being posed here:
“Elijah stood up in front of all the people and asked them, ‘How long will you try to have it both ways? If the LORD is God, follow Him; if Baal is God, follow him’” (1 Kings 18:21 GW).
Then Elijah spoke again, a rebuke to all present-day mockers like Ryan, who says, “What, are you guys telling us, that you are the only Christians that we should listen to?”
“So Elijah told the people, ‘I'm the only surviving prophet of the LORD, but there are 450 prophets of Baal’” (1 Kings 18:22 GW)
Tim, are you one of the 7,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal? Then hear the words of faith:
“Listen to me, people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem. Trust the LORD your God, and believe. Believe His prophets, and you will succeed” (2 Chronicles 20:20 GW).
This we know: Just as the Lord exposes the false, so shell He make known who are His. He is faithful, and will keep all His sheep, but the wicked will go into destruction.
“How well God must like you-- you don't hang out at Sin Saloon, you don't slink along Dead-End Road, you don't go to Smart-Mouth College. Instead you thrill to GOD's Word, you chew on Scripture day and night. You're a tree replanted in Eden, bearing fresh fruit every month, Never dropping a leaf, always in blossom. You're not at all like the wicked, who are mere windblown dust-- Without defense in court, unfit company for innocent people. GOD charts the road you take. The road they take is Skid Row” (Psalms 1:1-6 MSG).
Paul
For Andy,
"First, knowing this, that there will come in the last days scoffers walking according to their own lusts..." (2 Peter 3:3 MKJV).
Hey Paul, how many fingers am I holding up?
Also, I forgot my email password. Could you, the all-knowing, send it to me?
Oh, also, what is MKJV?
Paul, you say "Only Satan and those with him in darkness dispute this. Satan is the prince of the independent religious, each doing his or her own thing, as you all do here today, unabashedly, even boastfully (NO MAN will tell us what the Scriptures say, or what to do!)."
I say to you: You cannot tell me what the Scriptures say, or what to do! I read the Bible and rely on the Holy Spirit for that. Thanks for your help, but you are just a sinner like me. I asked the Lord to show me if you guys were false spirits or not.
I tested you. I asked you if you would each proclaim that Christ has come in the flesh. You did not claim that. You responded "Yes, WE absolutely affirm...". I did not ask if you and Victor collectively would claim that. I asked each of you to make a public profession. Individually. You aren't the prophets from Revelation who get to finish each others' sentences. I reject your current public profession. Before I waste any more time casting pearls to pigs I would like you, individually, without Victor, without using "we", and all by your lonesome make this claim.
And let's see Victor do the same.
Paul and Victor,
I'm new to the conversation, but I'm not here to "debate"...just to understand. You guys know your scripture...and you're very intellectual and articulate men...attributes of wise men, men being made righteous. Also of pharisees and Satan.
God has not yet revealed your hearts to me. Not YET...God does speak to others. But until that time, I cannot simply trust that you are wise men of good counsel. I would be a fool to.
So my purpose here (until I can speak with you more or get a better understanding through the Spirit) is to ask the easy questions...just to see how and why you guys operate...and for what purpose. So, for the pursuit of truth and for God's glory, please field my questions...no matter how insignificant they might seem. I’ll start little and slowly...don’t want to confuse. And if I feel you guys are trying to bring life and understanding through words or Scripture I’ll continue with bigger, more important things. I will get to the more important things.
For now, the most important thing for me is that, whether you see me as an unbeliever searching for truth or as a believer searching for knowledge, you treat me as you believe Christ would. Not comparing yourselves to me...b/c You, just like every other human on earth, are only allowed to see what God wants you to see...and in your wisest moment...you are ignorant compared to God. In your highest revelations, you know nothing compared to Christ. So let’s just say compared to Christ, which should be our only comparison (2 Cor. 10:12, Gal. 6:4) we’re all ignorant.
First of all I think it important that I understand what to now has been implied. Just as with Lake’s death and the World Trade Center attacks (both of which you claim God has given you insight into the purpose of those events), the Spirit has also granted you knowledge of the condition of the soul’s of Ryan, Bob, Kibbles, and Nancy (and actually all football fans but we’ll get to that later). I know this is true b/c you’ve called the lot of them “unbelievers,” “the anti christ,” “mongrels,” “whores,” etc...I need not go on there. Obviously not words used when in a discussion with a fellow believer...neither for rebuking nor encouraging. And the only way for you to know this is by divine revelation...I’m fine with that if its true...but just want to have it straight before I begin. I would also like to say DO NOT come to me with, “I know Ryan and Bob are non Christians b/c of their words.”
I once had a man approach me...ask me about Jesus...lead me to believe himself an atheist...ask me hard, pointed questions...he was a pastor, making sure I was prepared to defend the faith...to give him the answers he would have needed if he was truly an unbeliever. You can tell nothing of a man’s spirit from words on a paper...and if that is where you are making your judgments on people...condemning them to hell...then you are playing God. To be like minded with Christ doesn’t mean youre all knowing. It cannot be done without revelation from God.
So, clarify this before all else...you have received word from the Holy Spirit regarding these souls...and that is why you can make such claims on a man’s heart you’ve never met...correct? We’ll call that #1 question.
Also, I’d like to say that the Spirit has Not revealed to me the condition of the heart and soul of any man or woman in this room...just fyi.
#2.
Victor,
Ryan said,
“I’m trusting in God to send hardship in my life so that I can know him more.”
You responded,
“You have spoken it, and so it will be”
Please explain this? You believe Ryan to be an “unbeliever.” Or you’d say you know he is. Why then, b/c an unbeliever speaks a word, will it be so in heaven and on earth? He has not been covered by the blood of Christ, justified by grace through faith...why will God “make it so?” I work with dozens of unbelievers and every day they speak curses and blessings that I hope surely do not hold any weight in heaven. Curses on Christians and unbelievers, on themselves and others, on strangers and friends. I do believe there is power in the spoken word...but in no way do I believe b/c an unbeliever asks something of God or anyone...that “it will be so.” It could happen...it might happen...but why “You have spoken it, and so it will be.” Please explain.
#3
On your website it says “If you are walking in fear of men” (and not of God)...... “then you will be subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm”
Okay, let’s just say I’m okay with this as well...but you’ve also discussed that believers, Jesus at the top of the long long list, are also subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm. So no matter the cause or purpose of death, it seems that believers and non believers (for various reasons) are all subject to sudden and violent endings of their physical life in this realm. So why make this statement? The statement should actually read “If you’re walking in fear of the Lord, or in fear of men.....then you are subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm.” But if you’re statement read what it should...you’re not really saying anything. It’s a pointless thing to say...lets not fill up pages of stuff that’s pointless to say. When you say these pointless things, it brings up questions...b/c by making that statement, it implies that if you aren’t living in fear of men then you aren’t subject to any sudden and violent ending. If you’re not implying that...then don’t waste time. So why do you say it?
Now a few small questions, just so as I can get a better understanding of your spiritual gifts and your stance...then I’ll leave you to answer these things for now...baby steps.
1. Can you walk into a sanctuary in any church and know the condition of each and every soul immediately by God’s revelation?
2. Do you speak in tongues?
3. What are you hobbies? Do you have a family? Do you have a job? Will you break down a typical day in your life for me?
4. On your site you mention that you no longer “willfully sin.” Once again the implication there is that sometimes you “unwillingly sin.” If not, you would have said, “we don’t sin.” So could you give me an example or two of these types of sins? Particularly one you have recently committed. Let us both bring these things “into the light.”
Thank you gentleman. I assure you I’m not missing the point of all this...and these things are somewhat small matters in comparison...but they are building blocks towards understanding the bigger picture. I have so much more. I hope you’re not too tired to help me to understand.
Hey Ryan, are you counting thumbs as fingers? Because if so 7, if not 5...4...5. Dude, I can see you moving your fingers!
Victor,
I've just completed reading your post on Diabolical Doctrines. You appear to reject the concept of Trinity. Surely, there is only ONE true God. I certainly don't debate that. But, do you believe God exists separately and equally as three persons or in modes as a Father, a Son, and a Spirit, but never at the same time?
Your analogy of yourself as a father, son, and husband is faulty when compared to God. You see, Victor the son cannot speak to Victor the father, without you being crazy. You ARE correct that your distinction as a father, a son, and a husband are ONLY roles and do not separate you into three distince persons. That would be outlandish...for mere man.
For instance, Victor, if you go into your garden to plant, Victor the son hasn't gone separately while Victor the father remains in the house. Victor the son, were he to realize the impending hardships of gardening, cannot call out to Victor the father to be saved from hardship because those are just roles, not distinct existences. Victor is either in the garden or in the house...not both. If you, Victor, are actually in the garden then there is nobody in the house to whom you can call...at least not any that fulfill the above defined roles of Victor.
Let's say you do not find swimming to be a sin. I'm sure that it is, but for sake of argument go with me here. Let's say you went swimming in a pond and dove to the bottom for a rock. If you came back up with that rock I am certain that Victor the father would not be at water's edge shouting, "fantastic job Victor the son."
Or let's say you went on a journey to pick up some friends who had never been to your house. Surely if Victor the husband leaves to meet your friends then Victor the father and Victor the son go also. I bet you, in all three of your roles, have already made the guest bed. I am certain that when Victor the husband leaves he was not sent by Victor the father and that Victor the son does not stay behind and continue to prepare a place for your friends.
And if you were going to the seashore you would not say, "come Victor, let us all go to the seashore." You are a reasoning man and I know you would agree that these scenarios sound ridiculous because, of course, you are only one person. Obviously you have many more than three roles, but three of them are being a father, a son, and a husband.
On the other hand, Gog, as God and NOT mere man like you, exists however He pleases. Christ (the Son of the Father) prayed directly to the Father who was clearly separate and able to hear Him. When Jesus was baptized, the Father was clearly heard claiming favor on His Son. Jesus did not throw His voice so that it appeared as though the Father approved of Him. Likewise, when the One true God created the world He said "let us go...", not because He suffers from multiple person disorder, but because He exists however He wants.
Victor, you don't get to decide, that just because you claim to only hear one voice as you claim He speaks to you, how He exists. As hung up on scripture and logic as you are, I'm disappointed in you here, really. God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Spirit. How could you claim otherwise? And if you are claiming that He exists modally then how do you explain in Genesis where God says "let US" go...? How do you explain the Son praying to the Father in the garden? And how do you explain Christ telling us that He will have the Father send the Counselor while He prepares a place for us?
But this whole thread just continues to prove what we have already been saying over and over and over. Just because you guys decide something doesn't make it so. This thread is just tangible proof that you do this time after time. You have no authority to make the claims to you make. You have no authority to judge. God has NOT made you judge over anything, over me, over Ryan, or over other sinners. See, the Father designated the Son for this very purpose. I'm pretty sure He doesn't need you.
Now, were you to take Ryan's challenge (if reading the Scriptures daily is really considered a challenge...I think not, perhaps more of an encouragement) then I think you may begin to see the error of your ways. I will say again, I think that the zealousness of yours and Paul's is great. It's just that you operate with such indignance that you don't allow yourself to be transformed or molded by God. Just humble yourself for an instant.
Victor, don't make your reply to this post about me being wrong. Please don't say something like, "how can I not when you are wrong"...that isn't debate or answer. That is just opinion. Don't point out every nuance as though to pick me apart and call me a mongrel or a whore. Don't quote everything I've said and refute it by quoting random Scripture...UNLESS it applies. If it applies, then please use it. In fact, why don't you only respond to me with applicable scripture. Then, instead of hating me and lambasting me, why don't you pray for me, encourage me to listen and to seek Truth.
I am certainly praying for you...and I know He hears me whether your opinion agrees with that or not.
It's necessary that I clarify my typo in my last post. Towards the end, I intended to type "God" and not "Gog". That was an unintended typo. My apologies if any confusion may have been caused. Sorry. Just wanted to make sure that was clear.
Bob-
Clearly, you wrote "gog" because you are possessed of the devil and you unknowingly, subconsciously serve gog and magog in an effort to tear down the world's only two true Christians.
Bob, Victor here.
You asked us:
"Paul and Victor,
Would you each publicly state your belief that Jesus Christ, the Son of God who prayed to the Father and sits at His right hand, who asked the Father to send the co-existing Counselor, has come in the flesh? Would you make such a claim? Please, don't quote scripture here. I know it to be true from scripture. I'm curious if would you each make such a claim."
I, Victor Hafichuk do confess that Jesus Christ came and does come in the flesh. I confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I confess that He made all things and that He is Lord of lords and King of kings. I confess that He is the Son of God and sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. I confess that His Spirit dwells in me by virtue of the fact that He has granted me faith and repentance from my sins, and has performed the miracle of the new birth in me by giving me the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. I confess that He shed His blood for me and that only by His shed blood can there be remission of sins. I confess that He was crucified for us, was buried, and after three days and three nights was raised from the dead, even as He promised. He then ascended to the Father. At Pentecost, He gave His Spirit to those He appointed to wait and to receive in Jerusalem. I also affirm that the Holy Scriptures are His Word, the Testimony of the One and Only Lord Jesus Christ. I confess all these things not only by tongue but also by life.
What more can I say to one who is in such great darkness, but is determined to justify himself? If you had red our testimonies, as well as so many other writings at our site with any understanding from the Lord you presume to believe on, we would not need to give you this assurance. You would know because the Spirit of Jesus Christ would bear witness. But you cannot receive the witness because you simply do not have His Spirit; you are not His.
Paul will again give you verses that show that we have every right and power, as disciples in Christ Jesus, to say that WE, as one in Him, confess, that WE affirm, according to the Scriptures. However, that will not be good enough for you, Bob; nothing will. What we declared was true confession of the Lord Jesus Christ but it did not suffice you because you are carnal, still sold under sin and serving the subtle serpent. My present confession will do you no good either, and no confession, no matter how letter perfect, will satisfy you. Here is why:
"For they who are according to the flesh mind the things of flesh, but they who are according to the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be" (Romans 8:5-7 MKJV).
Patiently, we give you that which you demand of us, but who are you to demand? Who are you to "test the spirits" when, firstly, you do not have His Spirit, by Whom you can discern or judge, and, secondly, you do not know the meaning of the words, or how to apply them. You are a foolish, religious man, and your tongue is far from bridled (indeed, it is blasphemous and vile – you speak by the serpent), but we know with whom we are dealing and will put you away.
Why do you persist in your demand of us to prove to you that we believe? First, you are not convinced as much as you would like to be that we do not truly believe (you have never encountered anything like this before – religion, yes, evangelicalism, yes, but reality in Christ Jesus, no). So it makes you wonder some. Yet, you call us pigs and vomit your absurdities and bitterness on us, without cause, and, in Christ, we suffer these indignities for your sake. You continue in great effort to justify yourself, hoping that somehow you can find enough evidence, if even a trace, to condemn us.
Thus finding, you could attempt to salve your conscience and continue in your bitterness, justifying yourself. You think you have salvation; false ministers have told you that you have salvation but you and they are only deceived, and your fruits so tell it. No true believer walking faithfully in Christ Jesus could ever be deceived by you. You are a spiritual, American three-dollar bill, not rectangular but square, not green, but black; not currency paper, but toilet paper, used; to the initiated of God, you are that obvious.
Do I tell you this to mock you as you do us? No. I use graphic description, not with exaggeration but in truth, for your sake, to make it clear that you do not have what you think you have, and the reality is not hidden, as you suppose.
There is nobody as stupid as a stubborn fool, Bob, and you are that man, as is Ryan. You men are wicked, unrepentant, proud, arrogant, exhibitionist, and perfectly ignorant of the One you profess to serve. We speak these things every bit as much for others as for you, if not more (like Tim perhaps).
We need not test the spirits coming from you to know whether they are true or not, anymore than one must test sewage to see if it is immediately potable. But you, though we humor your foolish and ignorant request, for others' sakes and not ours, will not heed. You are incapable; the Father has not given it to you.
Your lack of understanding compels you to use the "test" words of apostolic counsel in foolishness. In effect, you are seeking a sign. Take the Lord, for example (not yours, but the One of Scripture, of Whom the entire Bible testifies): It did not matter how He worded anything for your fathers. The Pharisees and other religious would never be satisfied with truth. They could only find fault because that is all they were after. Their goal was not righteousness and truth, but self-justification. That is precisely your condition. They crucified Him though He spoke, and even was, the Truth in the flesh, and then desired His body to be removed promptly...so that they could "worship God," keeping the Passover! Isn't that you, Bob?
As you, they demanded a sign. But Jesus said there would be but one sign for an evil and adulterous generation, that being the death and burial of three days and three nights. After that came the resurrection, the purpose of the death and short-term burial. We walk in the Resurrection, Whom He is. We know and love Him because He knew, knows, loved, and loves us, and you know nothing of His risen life. If you did, you would love, believe, and receive us.
You are yet in your pride, your bitterness and your sins. You have fallen prey to the false gospel. Is there any hope in us for you? I take it that we would not respond to someone who calls us pigs, while conducting himself exactly as one, unless there was some kind of hope for someone – perhaps someone else?
You demand a sign; you press on to yet again "test the spirits." Why, if you are convinced we are pigs? Because you have not satisfied yourself quite enough to be able to wipe your mouth and walk away as the adulterous woman saying, "I have done no wrong."
Now you are caught in your own trap because we have truly testified, as well as anyone in Christ can, and you must either repent as you have never repented, or walk away in desolation and fear:
"But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, Who will render to each according to his works; indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life. But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek" (Romans 2:5-9 MKJV).
Your curiosity has completed your condemnation. Did you really think you were contending with just more religious fools, as do others at this blog? Or did you think you could win a battle against God? Will you yet say, "I reject your current public profession"?
"The one hearing you hears Me, and he who despises you despises Me; he who rejects you also rejects Him Who sent Me" (Luke 10:16 MKJV).
So thankful for the privilege of honoring the One Who loved me and gave Himself for me,
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Bob, it is no problem for us to confess Christ, whether together or singly:
I do confess that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the Lord my God Who has come in the flesh. He first called me to follow Him in 1978, causing me to turn from my sins that I might know Him, the true God of my fathers, to whom I, and they, had been dead. He gave me to leave behind my agnosticism, the dead Jewish religion, and all my worldly associations that I might walk with Him and with all those in Him, being one with His body. For this privilege and responsibility I am immensely thankful, and, as reflected on our site, by His grace I unabashedly profess Him to all men, whether Jew or Muslim or Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or avowed atheist. Without Him, all men are dead in their sins. With Him, there is forgiveness of sins and hope of better things.
But how is it that you ask those you have concluded are pigs for a profession of Christ? No matter what a pig says, it is still a pig. Who are you to decide that a pig can be a sheep? You have set up your own law, and judge by the letter of it, contrary to Christ and all good sense. Have we not rightfully called you antiChrist, because you put yourself in the place of God, making unholy determinations such as this?
That our mutual faith and confession of Christ is a problem for you is indicative of your dilemma. You cannot rightfully discredit us though you diligently search for a legal technicality to do so. Just as Jesus could not satisfy the religious who sought to put Him away in His day, so it is no different with you towards us. We will never satisfy you because you will not confess or repent when exposed as a fake, an inveterate sinner who professes the grace of God in vain. Of what use is grace if you are still in your sins? You make the sacrifice of Christ null and void, and boast about it! You will not forsake your lying, wretched self, so you do away with the Anointed of God Who comes in us to make your contrary and deplorable condition known to you.
You dismiss and reject the Lord's commandment to follow Him and be perfect. Those granted the grace to do so you call "pigs." Therefore it is no wonder that you do not produce or manifest any of the fruits of the Spirit – "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23 EMTV).
You profess that the Holy Spirit will guide you, yet it is well known that God is separate from sinners. He does not hear them (John 9:31). So how is it that He will guide you through the Scriptures, since you are separated from Him by your sins? You guide yourself and call that "God." This is antiChrist.
Those who are turned from their sins, or are willing to be turned from them, as was the Ethiopian to whom Philip preached, rejoice to have one sent from God who can explain the Scriptures to them. But those in their sins react as you do:
"You were altogether born in sins, and do you teach us? And they cast him out" (John 9:34 MKJV).
The very thing that is the one sign in particular that Jesus singled out as evidence of God's true assembly, the unity of His saints in the confession of His Anointed, you reject as ungodly. That is because your god is Satan, the king of the children of pride and all independents, including every religious sect that claims to be the "rightful worshipers of God." They gather together, but not by Him. Those gathered in Him are gathered indeed, and are as one:
"And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me" (John 17:20-21 MKJV).
"So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, knit together as one man" (Judges 20:11 KJV).
"Then Moses came and put before the people all the words of the Lord and His laws: and all the people, answering with one voice, said, Whatever the Lord has said we will do" (Exodus 24:3 BBE).
"And having heard, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord and said, Lord, You are the God Who made the heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that is in them.... And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the Word of God with boldness" (Acts 4:24-31 MKJV).
"If it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amori, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15 HNV).
"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!" (Psalms 133:1 MKJV)
Those who reject the unity of heart and mind of His saints, and its expression, are rejecting the Head to Whom the body is joined, Jesus Christ. Those who despise the common faith of Christ, characterizing it as "swinish," are calling Jesus Christ a pig. That is not a good place to be, especially when professing His Name. Because you profess Him while opposing Him, Bob, your sin is much greater than those in the world who do not claim to know anything. Be certain that you are held accountable for your words and the treacherous light spirit in which you mock the Lord our God and Savior. You ask us to prove that we are Christ's as you openly despise Him and His ways. Could anything be more hypocritical, hateful and vile?
That is a rhetorical question.
That we testify as one is not a sign of the false, but of the true:
"It seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to send chosen men to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have given up their souls on behalf of the Name of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Therefore, we have sent Judas and Silas, they by word also announcing the same things" (Acts 15:25-27 LITV).
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
The answers to all of Bob's questions about Christ and God can be found at Who Is Jesus Christ?
Thank you for taking all my posts and rewording them with craft and then posting them back at me as though you had written them. It's been very enlightening to re-read everything I've already posted.
Also, thank you for answering my questions on the Trinity.
Also, you are wrong about the apostle Paul no longer being a sinner. Take a look at Romans 7. Either Paul hates that he still sins or he hates that he is perfect. Either way, you have nothing to stand on. You will never acknowledge that, but that doesn't make you any less wrong. We won't agree on this so let's not waste any more time on it.
Also, you are wrong about another thing. So apparently you are not perfect. I do accept your public professions of faith. You see, as a human, that's all I have to go on as has been my point all along. I can never be sure, though. Whether your actions testify or contradict your public profession, I have no idea where that leaves your heart because Christ is the only judge of that.
I certainly hope that your hearts are true reflections of your professed beliefs. I truly do. I also hope that the Lord teaches you guys humility and you learn to approach people with gentleness and respect and offer practical ways for people to come to the Savior...ways that don't exalt you above Him.
As for these posts, I plan to take some things to heart. One is that I realize this is becoming a distraction in my walk with Christ and so I am esing myself out of the discussions here. Another is that I really appreciate how dedicated to avoiding sin you guys appear to be. I need more of that. I don't think you guys have stopped sinning because you are still men in a broken world, but I do appreciate your resolve to rid yourselves of sin. So it's kind of ironic. You guys thought you were judging me to hell, but really you driven me closer to God and to solidify my resolve to live Holy before Him. So thanks. I know you won't accept my thanks because you think I am a pig, a whore, a mongrel, an emptyheaded and foolish child, a hateful and vile hypocrite, the devil, and the AntiChrist. I know that you have "proven" I am all of these things. Thanks for giving example after example to me how amazing is the Grace of God that he has lavished upon me. I thank God that He has been merciful enough to me to extend His grace and allow me to place my faith in Him, whom I do serve.
In Him,
Bob
Ok, boys. Because this post has 40 LONG comments, it's starting to take a LONG time to load each time you want to read or post. I'm starting a new post to continue the discussion...
Andy, Victor here.
I suspect you are the same "Andy" that thought we were hilarious, comically so:
"I want to thank Paul and Victor for their hilarious comic strip. I LOVE Non Sequitur guys...I read it in every Sunday paper...you have a talent, keep it up."
Correct me if I am wrong. If you are that person, how is it that at first you are entertained, apparently to the point of mocking us with a heathen stance, and then you switch to a quasi-sober believing enquirer that presumes or pretends to know something about God, His ways, and the Scriptures, and thinks to perhaps trip us up or prove us wrong? Explain please; perhaps these are misperceptions?
Nevertheless, we will answer, if not for your sake, then for that of others. As for your questions, most if not all are already answered on our site, if you care to go there. By the grace of God, we live what we teach and teach what we live, speak what we know, say what we mean and mean what we say, and so it should be because the Lord requires it of all those who are His. It is not a matter of theory, philosophy, "theology," or opinion to us - Opinion. Those have all done their dirty work. Only revealed Truth from the Savior will suffice for those interested in living harmony and peace with God. Does that sound funny to you, Andy?
We'll see if you are laughing by the time we are done, not by ill temper and ridicule or proud, ignorant, juvenile banter (as has been the case from Bob, Ryan, Kibbles, and Nancy, who, incredulously, think themselves to be the Lord's), but by godly speech that only expresses reality and truth from God - Truth.
Let's take it from the top of your second post: I will give you individual links, which you ought to find useful if you are interested in answers to the questions you pose. If, upon sincerely, responsibly examining those links, you don't find what you are after, you may try us again, and, Lord willing, we will take it from there.
You write: "Not YET...God does speak to others."
Indeed, He does. Diabolical Doctrine: 23) "There is no literal, personal voice of God speaking today as in Biblical times."
You write: "But until that time, I cannot simply trust that you are wise men of good counsel. I would be a fool to."
Your words tell that you are a fool, quite unlearned in the Testimony of Jesus Christ, which says:
"We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
As harsh as those words will sound to the unregenerate ear, my purpose is not to belittle or condemn you but to tell you the truth. If you had faith, as you pretend, you would receive us, knowing we are of God. Your spirit, by the Holy Spirit, would be able to discern. You would receive a witness. Instead, you open your mouth wide before your ears have heard. That is the mark of a fool:
"Every wise one deals with knowledge, but a fool lays open his folly" (Proverbs 13:16 MKJV).
"If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him" (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).
Are we funny, Andy? While we realize you are trying to clarify, which, I suppose in itself might mean something of value, we perceive your spirit to be a little less than humble or sincere. Are we right? Nevertheless, for His sake and yours, and that of others, we will take this gladly give you the benefit of doubt. It gives us great and splendid opportunity to declare Him and His righteousness.
You write: "So my purpose here (until I can speak with you more or get a better understanding through the Spirit)...."
If you had the Spirit and the Spirit was helping you, you would not ask the questions you ask, particularly if you knew as much as you presume to know.
You write: "And if I feel you guys are trying to bring life and understanding through words or Scripture I'll continue with bigger, more important things."
While my words cut, they bring life, even as a surgeon's scapel can be for good. It will not be up to me but up to the Lord and what you do with your "feelings." How will you react? Will you permit yourself humble or proud feelings? Will you serve for God's glory, as you say, or will you continue to be your own god, and that in His Name?
You write: "For now, the most important thing for me is that, whether you see me as an unbeliever searching for truth or as a believer searching for knowledge, you treat me as you believe Christ would."
It is done. However, how can you tell how Jesus would treat you, not knowing Him? It is evident to us and to all who know Him that you only know what men have told you. Mind you, though it may be a careless use of words, you only ask that we treat you as we believe Christ would. We do. But our faith is not vain. Many do many things according to their own beliefs, having opinions but not having the Truth. We speak what we know:
"You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22 MKJV).
We can know, Andy; not many know they can know; it is a guessing game to most, thinking they do well.
You write: "...and in your wisest moment...you are ignorant compared to God. In your highest revelations, you know nothing compared to Christ. So let's just say compared to Christ, which should be our only comparison (2 Cor. 10:12, Gal. 6:4) we're all ignorant."
This is true if you speak of the carnal man. The spiritual man is not so because he is born of Him, spirit of His Spirit. We being spiritual, what you say, according to the Word of God, is patently false. Jesus promised, and fulfilled His promise to us, being faithful:
"However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come" (John 16:13 MKJV).
Your carnality dispels that truth, relegating it to an after-life because your carnal man has not, and will not, experience the truth. Not many professing Christ know that the "after-life" is to be experienced in the present, while we are still here in our earthen vessels, though it is not in or of this world. Not having the Spirit, you cannot appreciate the Heavenly riches of the bona fide Christian believer:
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things" (1 John 2:20 MKJV).
"But the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true and no lie, and as He has taught you, abide in Him" (1 John 2:27 MKJV).
"But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:12-16 MKJV).
Have you never red the Scriptures, Andy? Here is His clear declaration, of both meaningful and real things:
"Then he picked us up and set us down in highest Heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah" (Ephesians 2:6 MSG).
We are there in actuality, not only in "theology." We speak to you from His throne.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel" (Hebrews 12:22-24 MKJV).
You see, Andy, this is not funny now, is it? The Bible is not a comic book and these are not Victor's or Paul's words but God's, of which you are quite ignorant. Is that not so?
You write: "You've called the lot of them 'unbelievers,' 'the anti christ,' 'mongrels,' 'whores,' etc...I need not go on there. Obviously not words used when in a discussion with a fellow believer...neither for rebuking nor encouraging."
You are right. Jesus did not call His disciples "vipers," did He? John the Baptist did not call his or the Lord’s disciples "a brood of vipers," did he?
You write: "And the only way for you to know this is by divine revelation.... I'm fine with that if its true...."
You are right again. There is no other way to know, and I hope you are right on the second part. We will know, won't we?
You write: "You can tell nothing of a man's spirit from words on a paper...and if that is where you are making your judgments on people...condemning them to hell...then you are playing God."
Not true. If a man wishes to pose as a devil, it is because he is a devil. Christ would not pose as one, and those in whom His Spirit dwells would not do so because they are one with Him; there is no need on their part to act out darkness, not for any reason. It is foolish of you to think one cannot see Ryan and Bob for what they are, but that is your lot in darkness.
As to "condemning them to hell," I disagree there as well. They are in hell; that is why they speak as they do:
"He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God" (John 3:18 MKJV).
Read the Diabolical Doctrine 15) "Those who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be fearfully and forever tormented, without end."
As to "playing God," I might agree, but not for your judgment:
"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me" (Matthew 10:40 MKJV).
"Then we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For He has made Him Who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:20-21 MKJV).
But you don't know these things, Andy, not knowing Him in present reality. Are we still entertaining you? Do you see how your letter is riddled with error? Its very substance is darkness, and we shine the light.
You write: "To be like minded with Christ doesn't mean youre all knowing. It cannot be done without revelation from God."
We have, by the Scriptures, proven the first portion of this statement to be error, but you are right in the second portion of your statement, as we have already agreed.
You write: "So, clarify this before all else...you have received word from the Holy Spirit regarding these souls...and that is why you can make such claims on a man's heart you've never met...correct?"
Correct. See 1 Corinthians 2:12-16 as quoted above.
You write: "Also, I'd like to say that the Spirit has Not revealed to me the condition of the heart and soul of any man or woman in this room...just fyi."
We have that information.
You write:
"Ryan said, 'I'm trusting in God to send hardship in my life so that I can know him more.
"You responded,
'You have spoken it, and so it will be'
"Please explain this? You believe Ryan to be an 'unbeliever.' Or you'd say you know he is. Why then, b/c an unbeliever speaks a word, will it be so in heaven and on earth? He has not been covered by the blood of Christ, justified by grace through faith...why will God 'make it so?'”
My answer:
"But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the Day of Judgment" (Matthew 12:36 MKJV).
Ryan was not differentiating between evil suffered for righteousness' sake and otherwise, not knowing the difference, and what is worse for him, he would not listen.
Nevertheless, I was given to speak those words, without memory of specific Scriptures.
You write: "I work with dozens of unbelievers and every day they speak curses and blessings that I hope surely do not hold any weight in heaven. Curses on Christians and unbelievers, on themselves and others, on strangers and friends. I do believe there is power in the spoken word...but in no way do I believe b/c an unbeliever asks something of God or anyone...that 'it will be so.'"
You are right – not in many cases is this so, yet those that curse will be called into account. Now, was Nebuchadnezzar a believer? Did he answer for his word, which was spoken out of the abundance of his heart?
"The king spoke and said, Is this not great Babylon that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power and for the honor of my majesty? While the word was in the king's mouth, a voice fell from Heaven, saying, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken. The kingdom has departed from you" (Daniel 4:30-31 MKJV).
You write: "On your website it says 'If you are walking in fear of men' (and not of God)...'then you will be subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm.'"
You continue: "Okay, let's just say I'm okay with this as well...but you've also discussed that believers, Jesus at the top of the long long list, are also subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm. So no matter the cause or purpose of death, it seems that believers and non believers (for various reasons) are all subject to sudden and violent endings of their physical life in this realm. So why make this statement? The statement should actually read 'If you're walking in fear of the Lord, or in fear of men.....then you are subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm.' But if you're statement read what it should...you're not really saying anything. It's a pointless thing to say...lets not fill up pages of stuff that's pointless to say. When you say these pointless things, it brings up questions...b/c by making that statement, it implies that if you aren't living in fear of men then you aren't subject to any sudden and violent ending. If you're not implying that...then don't waste time. So why do you say it?"
I answer: One, you have something confused. You'd best give me the exact quotation and context. Two, those in the world are subject to the perils of the world. Those that are called, chosen and faithful do not die "accidental" or tragic deaths. Can you show me an example in Scripture where one perished by an untimely death when walking in faith and obedience to God? There is no example or principle thus described in Scripture. On the contrary, it is written, in so many places and in so many ways:
"I have been young, and am old; yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, or his seed begging bread" (Psalms 37:25 MKJV).
"Blessed is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is only in the Law of Jehovah; and in His Law he meditates day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivulets of water that brings forth its fruit in its seasons, and its leaf shall not wither, and all which he does shall be blessed. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For Jehovah knows the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish" (Psalms 1:1-6 MKJV).
"If My people, who are called by My Name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land" (2 Chronicles 7:14 MKJV).
"And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah Who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
"For Jehovah God is a sun and shield; Jehovah will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly" (Psalms 84:11 MKJV).
The whole Bible substantiates what I say and I say only what the Bible testifies. See Obedience, God Heals Today, His Way, and Christian Physical Diet.
There may be many reasons that professing believers suffer and perish, which are not apparent to those in darkness. Read Is Your Profession of Faith Vain, Christian? and The True Marks of a Cult.
You ask: "1. Can you walk into a sanctuary in any church and know the condition of each and every soul immediately by God's revelation?"
Only if the Lord gives it to me. However, men are known by their words and countenances, and, to the spiritual man, these things are readily discernible.
The question you ask is a carnal one, as with so many. The carnal man has no knowledge of the holy. In the spiritual man, all things are known, as the Lord and the Scriptures declare, and as I have submitted to you. Having said that, there are things known generally from God of almost any "sanctuary" and "church."
You ask: "2. Do you speak in tongues?"
Read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Diabolical Doctrine 3) "Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today."
You ask: "3. What are you hobbies?"
My food is to do His will. I have no need of hobbies, unless reading is counted as one.
You ask: "Do you have a family?"
I have two, an earthly and a Heavenly.
You ask: "Do you have a job?"
See www.harvesthaven.com.
You ask: "Will you break down a typical day in your life for me?"
No, but you witness a very good sample of most of my day here. God determines all things and I can do nothing without Him.
You ask: "4. On your site you mention that you no longer 'willfully sin.' Once again the implication there is that sometimes you 'unwillingly sin.' If not, you would have said, 'we don't sin.' So could you give me an example or two of these types of sins? Particularly one you have recently committed. Let us both bring these things 'into the light.'"
This reply will not satisfy you, but then I am not here for your pleasure or satisfaction, except of the highest order. Paul said that in his flesh dwells no good thing, yet he did not sin as you count sin. He said:
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:25 MKJV).
His brother and ours said, by the Spirit of our Elder Brother:
"And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin. Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous. He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:3-10 MKJV).
I don't claim righteousness in my own right, Andy, but I have experienced the reality of these Scriptures, as have all the saints. Those still in their sins cannot imagine such a life or condition before God, except in theory, which does not wash.
Do you convince me of sin? Ryan and Bob accuse us of sin. Are they right? Do you think they are right? Do you believe that when I call one a mongrel that I am sinning? If one is a mongrel, one is a mongrel. (For that very cause, the Lord destroyed the first world by water.) I would be wrong to say so if it were not true and I would be wrong to say it only to hurt. But am I wrong to call someone a viper or a dog or a slow belly if it is true? I would be wrong to deny it if it were true, especially if the Spirit leads to speak. But perhaps your "spirit" does not believe or condone such things. Is that so? Read the writings in False Love - The Last Stronghold.
You write: "Thank you gentleman. I assure you I'm not missing the point of all this...and these things are somewhat small matters in comparison...but they are building blocks towards understanding the bigger picture. I have so much more. I hope you're not too tired to help me to understand."
Honestly, Andy, what are your motives? Why are you asking? Will you tell us or would you taunt us to tell you, seeing we "claim to know all things"? Examine yourself and read those links we have labored to give you freely. If you are not prepared to do that, then you need not ask us any more questions. On the other hand, we cannot refuse one the Lord brings, even as he falls into his own traps.
Andy, if we do entertain you, beware:
"Woe to you who are full! For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now! For you shall mourn and weep" (Luke 6:25 MKJV).
"Sorrow is better than laughter; for by the sadness of the face the heart is made better. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of laughter. It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than for a man to hear the song of fools. For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool; this also is vanity" (Ecclesiastes 7:3-6 MKJV).
"Because I called, and you refused; I stretched out my hand, and no one paid attention; but you have despised all my advice, and would have none of my warning. I also will laugh at your trouble; I will mock when your fear comes; when your fear comes as a wasting away, and your ruin comes like a tempest when trouble and pain come upon you. Then they shall call upon me, and I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me; instead they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of Jehovah. They would have none of my counsel; they despised all my correction, and they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own desires. For the turning away of the simple kills them, and the ease of fools destroys them. But whoever listens to me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil" (Proverbs 1:24-33 MKJV).
Heeding, you will come away a very wealthy person. Rejecting, you will be as poor as you can ever be.
The Lord's will be done.
Blessed to know Him and the power of His resurrection, having the unspeakable, unmerited privilege of being identified with Him in an evil world,
Victor
www.thepathoftruth.com
Andy,
If you were just here to understand, as you now claim, you would not have begun our conversation by saying:
"I want to thank Paul and Victor for their hilarious comic strip. I LOVE Non Sequitur guys...I read it in every Sunday paper...you have a talent, keep it up."
You have already formed a conclusion, an unwarranted one, unsupported by any facts or evidence. If you were here to understand, you would bring forth your examples of that which you accuse us and submit them for scrutiny so everything could be proven. You have not done what is the very least to be expected among honest citizens of any earthly country, yet you wish to judge us according to the standards of Christ. How can you do that, seeing you are not able to fulfill what is minimally required among the sinners of this world?
There is no honest inquiry here, so we are not buying into your charade of objectivity.
Nevertheless, we will answer your letter, if not presently for your sake, because you are impervious to hearing the truth, then for the sake of others who may benefit from an examination of all things in the light. The time of intellectual religious bullying, in which you and your associates indulge, is over; praise God.
You write:
"God has not yet revealed your hearts to me. Not YET...God does speak to others."
You say that as if you think we have said otherwise. We never have. However, you are fundamentally wrong about how the saints in Christ recognize brethren and distinguish them from false brethren. It is not a matter of waiting on God to tell us. He has given us to exercise our spiritual senses, which are in Christ, so that we can distinguish good from evil. This is His will, that all His children can see. Just as men of this world can see where they are walking and can tell a wolf from a sheep, so does the Lord our God give those of His Kingdom to see where they are walking, and to know the difference between a wolf and a sheep. He has opened our eyes. It is that simple.
You ask us to treat you as Christ would, but then you tell us we cannot know what He knows. If we cannot see and know as He does, how, then, can we treat you like He would? You are not making any sense. Did Christ, in the days of His flesh, treat every person the same in His speech and manner? Did He treat the moneychangers in the temple the same as Zacchaeus, or the scribes and Pharisees that came to question Him in Matthew 15 the same as Nicodemus, who came to question Him at night? The Lord told the latter that those born of God are as the wind – one cannot not know where it came from or where it was headed. You expect us to imitate Christ, as you do, when the Lord Himself commands us to be born again, from above, and then we will be as Him. One cannot imitate the Spirit of God. So what do you imitate? A Christ of your imagination, formed by your corrupt understanding, which is an idol, the works of men's hands.
But if we have His mind, as Paul wrote, and as we know he is correct in what he says, then we do truly treat you, not as He would, but as He does presently, because He is with us. Not having Him yourself (as I have just demonstrated by your lack of understanding of His ways), you do not understand us, just as the religious in the days of His flesh did not understand Him.
You are concerned about and focused on how we treat you. That is another hallmark (besides the man-conceived image of Christ) of false Christianity, which is all about how the one professing expects to be treated by others. True Christianity is not about how others treat me, but about how I treat others. You, on the other hand, want to be treated right, but do not practice the standard you wish to have practiced towards you. You mock us and then turn around, writing us this condescending letter based on false conclusions, not even having bothered to inform yourself with readily available materials we provided for you; if you had done so you would not have approached us in your current manner and purported inquiry.
Furthermore, how the Lord will treat you hereafter will depend on how you treat us:
"I will bless those who bless you, But I will curse those who curse you. And through you I will bless all the nations" (Genesis 12:3 GNB).
"He that receives you receives Me, and he that receives Me receives Him who sent Me. He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward" (Matthew 10:40-41 EMTV).
It is not up to us to enforce His judgments, we are but His messengers. However, let no one here have any doubt that we make His Words known, by which all things are judged, to His glory.
You cite two Scriptures to prove that there is no difference between us because, when compared to Christ, we are all as nothing. But you miss the very point of those Scriptures, which are saying that Christ’s work is communicated through the men He chooses, in whom He comes to dwell. It is not at all saying there is not a difference between people. Otherwise, Galatians 6:6 would not say:
"Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches."
And 2 Corinthians 10:14 would not speak of the authority of some over others:
"For we are not overextending ourselves, as though our authority did not reach to you, for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ...."
If we are sent by Him, and have His authority, which we do, then you would do well to listen to what we say. Trying to neutralize our calling by saying none of us is anything in comparison to Christ, and cannot know His mind, is using truth to support a lie that enables you to evade the Truth. That is how Satan operates.
When we say such things, you condemn us for name-calling, but if we speak with evidence, backed up by Scriptural truths, then who are you to denounce it, seeing you have nothing to show anyone, including those you denounce, to prove otherwise? You are a blowhard, Andy, and you need to do a dramatic 180-degree turn from your present trajectory, which is going head on against God. You will not prevail, but He, the Stone, will pulverize you.
One of your irresponsible statements is that we claim to have knowledge of the conditions of the souls of all football fans. You imply by this canard that we condemn all such people. But we said or implied no such thing. What I did say was very different, speaking to one who professes Christ and believes in eternal damnation:
"Is it not amazing that those naming the Name of Christ are so interested and involved in spectator sports? Can one see Peter and Paul visiting the Coliseum, if it were built in their day, while in Rome to watch the gladiators and other sports, becoming followers and fanatics? Don't those naming Christ know there are far better things to do with one's time? Are you all hypocrites like Ryan, believing in eternal hell-fire, yet spending your time watching football games and cheering on your teams, no differently than your fellow fans that you expect will soon be roasting in hell? If you really believed your own blasphemies you should be doing everything you could to save your fellow sinners from such an unimaginable fate, but instead you indulge your animal passions on football. You are certainly no children of His, not that we ever for a moment could think you were."
To conclude, as you have, that I was making a blanket statement about the souls of all football fans is unsupportable. The question becomes, why did you conclude this? The answer is, because you are of a fault-finding generation, just like your fathers who killed the prophets and crucified the Christ to maintain their own righteousness.
You write:
"You can tell nothing of a man's spirit from words on a paper...and if that is where you are making your judgments on people...condemning them to hell...then you are playing God. To be like minded with Christ doesn't mean youre all knowing. It cannot be done without revelation from God."
We have, more than once, given correction to the notion of the condemnation of hell to which you ascribe, and falsely ascribe to us, yet none of you has been responsible enough to consider the plain meaning of our words, let alone read the support materials we have sent you. How can you expect to get anything out of the answers we give to your questions when you do not bother to listen to anything we say? How can you perform righteous judgment by your ways, as the Lord requires?
This is why I have called your inquiry a charade. It is an inquisition. You know where you are going, and there is no talking to you. Nevertheless, there is an answer for you, because God does not believe in "eternal damnation," but will correct you in due course with just punishment and will be fully justified in His correction because you will not be able to say you did not know or hear His glorious truth that you rejected.
It is no small source of amazement that hypocrites like you can pronounce false judgments against us and our spirit from reading our "words on a paper," conduct additional inquiry such as this for more material, and then tell us that one cannot know anything about men's spirits from such an exercise. Then why bother? What is the point of your questioning? Just go to God and get your revelation.
But the fact is that God is not revealing anything to you, and our words do say something about our spirits, as your words also say something about yours. If Jesus Christ is known as the Word made flesh, how can it not be that our words are the manifestation of our natures? That you profess to know Him and do not realize or understand this is just another confirmation of many that you do not know Him at all.
Here is what God has to say on the matter of our words and their importance:
"But I say to you, that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned" (Matthew 12:36-37 EMTV).
Here is the difference between your words and ours:
"The words of the wicked are to lie in wait for blood; but the mouth of the upright shall deliver them" (Proverbs 12:6 MKJV).
For the Lord our God has given us good words to speak, even His Word:
"Have I not written to you excellent things in counsels and knowledge, that I might make you know the sureness of the words of truth; to return the words of truth to those who send to you?" (Proverbs 22:20-21 MKJV)
You already have your answer to question number one. Just return to what I said about God giving us sight by His Spirit. We do not need His intervention, any more than a worker at the zoo needs his boss to tell him the difference between a snake and a mountain sheep. He has also given us our sight to save, not to destroy. By seeing we are able to remove the things obstructing others from seeing. But those who say they already see, such as you, are not able to receive help (John 9:41). You enter into condemnation, by your own choice (John 3:18-21).
For number two, I am sure Victor has answered well, but I would like to once again point out your faulty conclusion-making process, because it is good in God's sight that we verify these things to all witnesses. Because Ryan, an unbelieving professor of Christ, said something that will come true for him, does not imply that whatsoever any unbeliever says will come true. That is false logic and obviously not what anyone anywhere expects. It only so happens in this instance that Ryan is correct about what will happen to him, and this is all part of God's perfect judgment.
For number three, you are once again wrong in your assumptions. We never said anything of the sort "that believers, Jesus at the top of the long long list, are also subject to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm." We said the opposite. If you check your references you will see this is so.
As for your minor questions, they are all answered on our site. If you really want to know, it would do you good to find the answers yourself.
I will say one thing for the sake of all, however, as this matter of sin has been brought up several times. The Lord always means what He says. When He says He would have us perfect, walking in the Light and keeping His commandments, He absolutely means it. Why would He not? Is it not the best thing for mankind to walk with God, according to His way, reaping life rather than death? And if He means it, the Lord is certainly willing and able to provide what is necessary for us to do what He commands. For this reason He died and overcame death. This is a most wonderful truth.
The problem for the unregenerate man is that he does not know what such a fulfillment looks like. If he did, those unregenerate men who thought to keep the Law would not have slain the direct manifestation of the Law fulfilled, Jesus Christ. It is no different here. We have Andy, Bob, Ryan, Kibbles, Nancy, and others who think to be followers of Christ and to uphold His Law, yet they reject His appearing in those who actually keep His Law by His grace. Here is what the Scriptures say about these rejecters of Christ:
"For they, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Romans 10:3 EMTV).
They are following their own version of dos and don'ts, trying hard to be right, yet failing miserably. They scoff when we tell them that Christ has delivered us from our sins and from sinning. They say, "Impossible, preposterous!" All they have experienced is failure, not knowing there is a better way:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" (Romans 10:4 EMTV).
We are not trying hard, as Bob put it in his latest post, to keep the Law. The Law is our new nature in Christ. Must a sheep try hard to bleat and eat grass? The Lord has done the work and, as He says of Himself, "We are what we are." We are what He has made us. We are in Him, and He is us. He is our lives. He lives, and therefore so do we, delivered from sin and death. This is the glorious promise of the gospel of Christ.
We tried hard, after we received the Spirit, as did the apostle Paul (recounted in Romans 7), to keep the Law in our own strength. The flesh was not yet overcome; the real battle was only just beginning. (How can one overcome the flesh without His Spirit within? You must be born again.) We were in agreement with the Law, having the mind of Christ and knowing that it was good, but found that we, in our flesh, could not keep it. Therefore the Law was our tutor that led us to Christ, and it was through His righteousness that the Law was fulfilled in us. We entered into His rest, ceasing from our works (Hebrew 3 and 4).
Children must be trained, and receiving the Spirit is only the inception, not the completion. At the end of our training, as Paul declares of himself - describing what happened to him, Christ delivered us from this body of death (Romans 7:25). No, not the physical resurrection. Something more important, the spiritual resurrection, without which no person will see the Lord. The physical resurrection is a mere byproduct of something more important occurring, here and now, within.
In this we have what Paul describes:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death" (Romans 8:1-2 EMTV).
We have been set free from sin and death, but those on this blog keep prodding us to confess that we are in sin, and that we are under the same condemnation that they are. To admit this would be to lie, because we are not. It would be a great disservice to all of you, because you need to know that every Word of God is true, and all the promises of God in Christ are "Yes." He is good to His Word.
Does this mean we are not men of infirmities, with all attendant weaknesses? (Infirmities and weaknesses are not sins – 2 Corinthians 12:7-9.) Of course not. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, as Paul declares, that the excellency of the power might be of God (2 Corinthians 4:7). But do not think, as do you all, that you can have the victory without the gift and, more particularly, the Giver.
There is much on our site to help those who wish to know more. A good place to begin is Law and Grace. Yet, our site is held in contempt by dogs and swine, as several have done here with our words.
Paul
www.thepathoftruth.com
I have to be honest. I have only read like the first three or four sentences of some of Paul and Victor's posts. My comments heretofore will simply be for comedic effect because my extreme tired-head has lulled my brain into vomiting on itself. With my extremely cursory research (read as "complete lack of research"), I have come to 2 conclusions...
1) I still, even after Paul and Victor's attempts to sway me, believe in Jesus and the fullness of his gospel. I vow to Christ to never follow the words of circus performers. Paul, I totally saw you on the tightrope albeit metaphorical.
2) Paul and Victor are not very funny, and I bet sometimes it hurts inside their heads. I feel like they may live together in a sealed room, where they have to push a button every hour or so in hopes that nothing happens. I assert one certainty... I have zero desire to see the comedy duo of Paul and Victor Live at the Apollo (except in hopes of seeing the giant cane yank them offstage). Don't worry Paul, while you're reading, Victor can man the button.
Furthermore, I welcome a condescending response from Paul and Victor, and I promise to start reading it also.
By like the fourth sentence, I am certain that the voice of Charlie Brown's teacher will be so overwhelming in my head that I will wonder if Paul was typing with too many marshmallows in his mouth to still type "Fluffy bunnies".
Okay, Paul, your turn on the button.
Victor, you have chosen your name wisely grasshoppa'. So regardless of any argument made against you, you are still Victor. Darn you for thwarting me so smartily. I will now forever change my name to Extravictor. Outsmart that one.
I promise that humor is of God, and by my solemn decree, He is smiling.
There is a website called Aquatechnology.net that deals with Victor's and Paul's dubious theology quite well. There's also a list of heretical quotes from them, as well as from other neo-pentacostal pastors and speakers, included near the end of the article. You'd be suprised how bizzare their biblical reasoning is... satanic really.
Though I differ with the eschatology being presented on this website, which I think is rarely even mentioned, I do agree that it rightly tears apart Paul's and Victor's biblical worldview and defends Christian Orthodoxy.
Thanks for the post about Aquatechnology. I'm nominating that site for a Webby today!
And we are to take an anonymous accuser's word for it?
The entire correspondence with the author of said materials at Aqua Technology, of which he quotes only one sentence, is available at A Pygmy Acts Like King Kong.
There one can see how well the Aqua Technology author's "Christian Orthodoxy" fares, which is to say, not well at all, just like on this blog.
This is for Paul, Victor and Co. and for anyone who thinks they are men of ‘God’.
http://discerningtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/the-path-of-truth-to-where/
I know Paul/Victor will be reading this site, so to them: - don’t bother emailing me, your emails are set for instant deletion. As for the demonic spirits attached to either of you - I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!!!!
God is NOT a cruel God .. neither does He look kindly on people proclaiming to be Christians saying, writing and proclaiming cruel deeds and words in His Name, words that stab and are intentionally aimed to hurt. Victor calling up his mother-in-law after she has been diagnosed with cancer to tell her that she is a whore for example and there are many more example of his cruelty in his testimony, cruelties done in his mind by inspiration of the 'Spirit of God' speaking to him. So Victor's father didn't contact him when he was visiting someone nearby and Victor says that even though he was called upon to forsake his parents, something that is misconstrued from the scriptures and taken out of context, he was put off and annoyed that his father didn't contact him because after all his father was an unbeliever and therefore not called upon to forsake his son (scratches head).. so it is alright in Victor's mind for him as a believer to forsake his father (even as his father lay dying) but it was not alright in Victor's mind for his father to not bother contacting him most probably as a result of his son having cut himself off from him. It is selfish and self absorbed thinking on Victor's part. The list goes on. So the holocaust was justified and God's will because it led to the State of Israel, the State of Israel that was born out of terrorism against the Palestians, jews, Christians and muslims alike who had lived there for centuries, and they were driven from there homes, some were raped, many were slaughtered unmercifully and those who lived driven out through terror tactics and that is all the will of God.. yeah right... it reminds me some of it of a false Christian version of the new age movement's diabolical 'you create your own reality' skewered form of thinking, good is evil and evil is good only that puts God on the side of Evil and make Him Evil.
Well God is NOT EVIL and He doesn't cause it or justify it, the God of Victor, Paul and co-horts is a cruel God and they use scriptures to try and justify their stance, this alone tells me that they are not tapping into the true Holy Spirit of God.. Shame on them for hurting people (and themselves as well) and using the name of God to do it. Id you are going to be cruel then do it in your OWN names because it is being done by You.
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